Zi-O's Ending and Series as a whole.

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by Japaneseseriesfan, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    So, this mess finally ended, in a messier way than I thought possible. You know, I bet Toei went "Let's put together Tsukuyomi's Rider suit", and not even have her pull bullshit stunt action cause "we know we can't justify that". But seriously, the simply did that because they're trying to see if they can make people buy her Ridewatch as a last minute cash grab attempt. Makes you think, so, was she really necessary? That (literal) backstab came from a mile away (which by the way, that sword power she has probably is never gonna explained, nor how becoming a Rider somehow made her showcase Time-Stop power on the largest scale possible, which she previously has never done.)

    Someone mind explaining, without doing mental gymnastics, how being a Rider amplifies one's Time-Stop powers? Actually, don't. I don't want to get into this nonsense of how being a Rider is not some kind of "special classification" of it's own that being a Rider means something more than just being a hero. As if "Kamen Rider" is a higher class of heroes that allows you to do asspulls moves.

    I'm also willing to bet Bandai will probably want to sell that Oma Zi-O belt at some point. Is it just me, or was it just out of place for them to use the whole "Sougo uses his powers to reset time, so that Huere and Ora can be our friends in High School too!"? That's just a whole stretch from when he dreamt up Kikai. And, we never get the face reveal for older Sougo, because of course, film language clich├ęs dictates evil guy must remain hidden in the shadows where lighting is purposely done so we never see his face, but we everything else around him is damned bright.

    This series managed to like mess everything up much worse for an anniversary show than Decade did with it's own series. The only reason I kept coming back to it was because I wanted to see the older actors return to their roles again, and the only reason I kept sticking with it was because I thought they were gonna finally pull something that could have justified all of this. But like, nope. Swartz is really bad at his job. This guy's entire plan was reliant on him lucking out so many times for things to go his way, he didn't even have back-up plans for them. Are we really supposed to believe this, at best, henchmen style character is supposed to be the main villain? God, my head hurts. At best, this entire series is only good for being eye-candy for anyone's favorite actor returning, but it's also a disrespectful slap in the face of previous shows ending (Blade is a big example).

    Geiz's death was like... well, you spent an entire series telling the guy he'll become Oma Zi-O and become bad, and then in your dying moment, you spout some speech about being friends with him, then tells him to become the very thing you swore to prevent. Overall, the entire series was inconsequential. It tried to pull a Ryuki with that hard reset, but at least with Ryuki, you could be invested in the characters because they were interesting and you'd want nothing but the best for them after awhile. With Zi-O it's all just so unearned, and comes off as more of an poor imitation, and a self-congratulating pat on the back. This is just one of those series I knew I should have dropped, like I did with Fourze, Wizard, and Ghost. But looking back, I'm now convinced this is probably the worse Kamen Rider show I've ever seen, from design, to plot, to disrespecting legacies, to casting choices. About the only thing I could respect is the sound design department from time to time, and the editing department when they finally edited the episodes to emulate some of the styles previous Rider shows had. Oh, and some of the Another Riders had cool designs, I'll give it that, but that's really about it.

    It just feels like whoever was behind this project had a bunch of Rider action figures to play with and went "oh and now all the Riders come flying out of time portals - wait, this is totally a scene we need to film!"

    Sougo's uncle fixing the Ridewatches "because there is no watch he can't fix" is completely the dumbest reasoning I've ever seen. Are we to believe, this gadget that houses Rider powers from across space and time and the multiverse in general, can be fixed with normal watch parts? And by a normal human who probably can't comprehend how such a device functions or was even made to begin with? That whole moment between him and Sougo is just forced as hell, and so is the last meal scene.

    Zi-O's done it. It actually broke time and all logic with it just to arrive at it's own conclusion: basically, this series only existed to Tsukasa and Kaito can watch the worlds end and take a probably messed up picture of it. Otherwise, we had no reason to be watching this entire show.

    Here's to hoping Zero-One actually has something to offer, because I can't go another year with a bad Rider show. This entire franchise was there for me in times of great need, and it's the first hero show I ever saw as a child. When I first had to drop Fourze, I felt like I was betraying Rider as a whole, but now it's more like the staff behind all these badly made shows have already done that to me first. In any case, leave your thoughts down below about what you thought of the ending and the entire show in general. Personally, I feel like it didn't even need to be made.
     
  2. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    So I'm taking by your Wall to the North text that it was not the ending the Heisei era deserved, huh?
     
  3. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    You do realize that I was going to make a series discussion thread, right? I've been making the episode discussion threads.

    Unless you want to be in charge of that, in which case, you very well could.
     
  4. bakura23

    bakura23 Member

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    for me who like's to concentrate on in series continuity the only i can think about that also annoy's me is the whole thing with the worlds and how it now look's like that we started last week with an explanation that the rider's only live in one continuity because ever since 2009 they've slowly been combining but now it look's like that they've all separated into there own little worlds again. so does that mean there's only one rider for each world and with time now rewritten do all the crossover taisen movie's don't count?
     
  5. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    @Dr. Kain - Yup, not in the least bit. We began with a good bang with Kuuga, and ended Heisei with all of it's flaws embodied by Zi-O

    @Samurai Echidna - You usually wait until the subs are out. I wanted to get my thoughts out when they are still fresh. And no, I don't want to be in charge of anything. This is just an overview thread I wanted to make to express my feelings about and anyone else who wanted to say what they think right off the bat.

    @bakura23 - It's kinda weird right, since this whole "do they take place in the same universe or not?" thing has been going on since Kuuga and Agito, which was intended for that. Then, all the staff members decided they didn't want to demean Godai's journey, so they dropped that concept real fast. I think Toei's problem is actually the same as Marvel's when it comes to their MCU as well: too many writers in the pot, throwing in ideas that don't fit with each other nicely, and that's all because they couldn't get a proper plan going to make it all finally make sense at the end, despite the fact that they had a variety of comics to pull from, which Toei doesn't. It's the mark of a lazy writer to simply go "oh screw it, it's a different, alternate universe that has it's own continuity and logic" because that's the easiest way to go about solving a situation like this when you realize you already filmed an entire show and had to come up with a proper explanation.
     
  6. Captain Shark

    Captain Shark Member

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    Haven't seen the final episode, but for everything else? Zi-O was redemption, but not in the way we expected. Ryuga was added to the continuity, Faiz got to live, Blade got a proper ending, Hibiki got a better epilogue, Kabuto had a story that wasn't slow paced, Den-O proved it didn't need a human host to be funny, Ghost could be useful while alive, Diend was actually tolerable, OOO's influence on Aqua had a payoff, the G-3 suits were still being developed on long after the events of Agito, and all issues with the multiverse continuity got explained. Kuuga and W could have had representation episodes and they really needed to ditch the future rider nonsense, but other than that? It was a blast from start to finish. We deserved the two big recent stains to be cleaned out, instead what we needed was the minor older stains to be finished. Zi-O truly was a dark knight. Time to rank this with the rest of the franchise:

    Drive > Skyrider > OOO > Black RX > Original > Wizard > Decade > Zi-O > Stronger > Fourze > Black > Amazon > Kiva > Super-1 > Agito > J > ZO > Ghost > ZX > V3 > Kuuga > 555 > Hibiki > X > Gaim > Den-O > W > Ex-Aid > Shin > Ryuki > Blade > G > SD > The First > Kabuto > The Next > Build

    And for ranking the riders:

    Skyrider > Zi-O > OOO > Black RX > Cronus > Decade > Riderman > Kiva > Birth > Black > Gaoh > J > ZO > Drive > Meteor > Shin > Gills > Faiz > Fourze > Shadow Moon > Amazon > Arc > Super-1 > Delta > IXA > Odin > G4 > Brain > Agito > Sasword > Chalice > Kaixa > Dark Kiva > Kuuga > Stronger > V3 > Ichigo > Nigo > Beast > TheBee > Leangle > Hibiki > X > Saga > Core > Den-O > Wizard > ZX > G Den-O > G3-X > Bravo > Ryuga > Proto Birth > Another Agito > Gold Drive > Zeronos > Aqua > Ex-Aid > Zangetsu Shin > Zangetsu > Gaim > Zolda > Knight > G > Zanki > Todoroki > Danki > Lazer Turbo > Psyga > Kabuto > Dark Kabuto > Garren > Specter > W > Imperer > Verde > Ibuki > Accel > Ghost > Lazer > Woz > Blade > Ryugen Yomi > Ryugen > Fifteen > Orga > Sabaki > Kabuki > Bujin Gaim > Ouja > Ryuki > V1 > Eternal > Skull > Mach > Genm > Shuki > Gatack > Necrom > Raia > Tiger > Poseidon > G3 Mild > Baron > Sorcerer > Chase > Rey > Drake > Lance > Scissors > Femme > Gai > Kivala > Punch Hopper > Kick Hopper > Ginga > Lupin > Snipe > Sigurd > Duke > Marika > Glaive > Yuuki > Para-DX > Nadeshiko > Mage > Knuckle > Gridon > Kurokage > Brave > Extremer > Joker > Cyclone > Fuuma > Mars > Nega Den-O > Larc > Caucasus > Hercus > Ketaros > Dark Drive > Geiz > Kikai > Shinobi > Quiz > Heart > Poppy > Zectrooper > Kurokage Trooper > Rider Player > Tsukuyomi > Diend > all Build related divers
     
  7. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    Oh jeeus fucking christ dude, get off your fucking soap box about Build.
     
  8. Captain Shark

    Captain Shark Member

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    I purposely left Build complaining out of that post and tried to focus on what Zi-O did correctly and where it stood amongst its peers. Also the soap box will die when I find a worse tokusatsu. As in worse, not just as bad or slightly better. Not. One. Nanosecond. Before. And yes, my perception of time moves so slow for me I can feel the nanoseconds.

    Oh yeah and the final episode was legit good and had nothing dumb in it aside from resetting the multiverse into different Earths again. It messes with continuity a little, but in ten years or a movie maybe it'll change, I'm more open to these now. Looking forward to the movie!
     
  9. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    Did they ever explain how and why? I assume Zi-O changing timeline stuck then?
    Also, since Super Hero Taisen movies aren't canon (and Kamen Rider 4 by extension) that means Takumi never really died in the first place.
     
  10. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    I prefer Faiz's ending to be left as it was: ambiguous whether or not he lived or died.
     
  11. raden238

    raden238 Member

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    Just got around watching the final episode and wow this was not satisfying.

    - Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi did absolutely nothing! The whole "pretending to be evil, in order to secretly foil the plans of the bad guy" is so old. It already got old during Decade and that was a decade ago. The stabbing scene could have easily been her using Zi-O's sword or something. The drama was so forced and unnecessary, it makes me wonder if its filler.

    - Sougo's Uncle fixing the all the ridewatches. I will give them credit, I did not notice that Uncle worked in a clock repair shop and the "ride watches" were "watches", so of course he could have fixed them! This is just a classic toku "who gives a flying f*k" scene, that makes no sense.

    - Geiz and Tsukuyomi dying, only to be brought back along with Heure and Ora in a different universe/timeline, good job Toei, haven't seen this before.

    - Sougo transforming into Ohma Zi-O was badass. Easily the best part of the episode but the show.

    - Grand Zi-O's ability to summon Legend Riders from their respective time periods for attacks, when they're defeated what happens to them?

    - Why was Woz Ginga affected by the Another Decade's time jacker attack? Didn't an earlier episode, clearly show that he can negate that?

    - The whole resetting the timeline/universe and starting fresh has been done to death. Did they producers really like Build that much to copy it again? They don't even try to be vague with the ending either, of course Sougo will be Ohma Zi-O.


    Overall, Zi-O was not a satisfying end to the Heisei Era. I admire the fact that Toei got back so many alumnus to return to reprise their roles, including having Decade and Diend being supporting characters throughout the series and even building upon their history. But the rest of the Riders, were just "hey we're back remember us?, remember this reference? good!". Gokaiger from Super Sentai did it better, it taught the team, gave them lessons and advice. But here Sougo doesn't even remember most of the stuff that he was been through. They just brush over most of arcs and it doesn't have a lasting impact. Not to mention the fact they don't even follow their own Ridewatch lore, midway into the season. The producers clearly didn't know what they wanted to do. We went from time travel to multiverse in the last 4 episodes. I admire that they wanted to redo Decade's ending and for the most part it's better. It confirms that the Riders do indeed have multiple A.R. world counterparts.

    I didn't like Geiz and Tsukuyomi's characters at all. One just spends the whole time "ping ponging whether or not he wants to kill Sougo" and the other is just has this whole emotionless, indifferent personality and that did not contribute anything to the show. You have easily replaced her role in the final act, with Geiz or Woz. Black Woz's was just another "bad guy turned good" character, along the likes of Grease, Taiga and Necrom. I'm just so sick of Toei cookie cutting the same character molds every single year.

    For an "end of an era"/celebration of the Heisei era, it could have been better. This was clearly a remake of Decade, but it doesn't make much improvements. The whole show was filled with plot holes that are enough to make its own thread and just overall lost a lot of steam, once they started those future rider arcs that acted as Woz's power ups. I would give the show a 6.5/10. It's better than Hibiki and Ghost, who are still my two least favorite Heisei shows.
     
  12. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    Ambiguous for whom?

    Of course, the 555 ending was complete and utter shit. They spent 50 episodes and nothing happened because there was no ending. We didn't even get to see the final battle. I gave Kuuga leeway because it was the first series after a decade long hiatus. 555 had no excuses.
     
  13. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    Of course a dumb ass retarded mother fucker like you would think Zi-O was good. But hey, it must be real good fucking your sister mother.
     
  14. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    @Dr Kain can you not insult others? It's just a show, have some restrain.

    I mean, things still happened. 555 was a character-driven show first and foremost.
    Hibiki fits the definition of "nothing happened" way more, but it was a character-driven show as well (well, tried to be).
     
  15. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    555 was more focused on exploring the effects of how miscommunication can happen, even if it's become relatively easier to (with personal phones and what not) because people don't mean what they say when they write things in a text (I'd say that's become more true when it comes to the Internet). And no, Faiz had a story. It also had an ending that was purposely left open-ended because it was exploring themes of isolation, and trying to reconcile things without hiding from one another. Clearly, towards the end, no matter how many times Kiba and Takumi fought over their differences, they came to an agreement at the end on one thing: the world needed to be saved, even if they weren't sure what the answer to anything else was. It's not a story about an aspirational hero. It's a story about a realistic hero who isn't perfect.

    Kusaka was ultimately killed because he refused to ever reconcile anything, and chose to walk his own self-defined path despite being told he should stop. That's the difference between him and Kiba. That's why Takumi could come to an actual agreement with Kiba much better than Kusaka, despite the fact that Kusaka is supposed to be the main secondary Rider. It doesn't help Kusaka's case, when he finds out that Takumi is also an Orphenoch, because it's easy to see him as picking sides whenever he protects an Orphenoch. At the end of the day, it's kind of a cautionary tale in a sense. Kusaka had a mother complex that he applied to Mari, in an essence he's still a boy and didn't grow emotionally. In a sense, so is Takumi. The difference between them was that Takumi knew what it was like to be different in a bad way and be treated poorly. Kusaka only pursued excellence to be praised as different in a good way.

    To say there was no story, you must have stuck your neck deep in a hole or something.

    I don't even mind there not being a "final fight". We got plenty of episodes with awesome fight choreography, if anything, it was great they didn't drag that fight out and let them all try to go for the kill because they meant serious business.

    You can say what you want about 555, and you can think your train of thought is justified, but that's the point of the opening song: everyone thinks their end justifies the means, and all you're doing by thinking that is repeating a cycle and forcing others to repeat it because you don't want to go along with them.
     
  16. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    Hibiki at least tried to be unique and original and featured beautiful cinematography and music to boot.

    Both shows failed at actually killing off their main villains though, as did Kabuto.
     
  17. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    555 was pretty original at the time. It was gritty, slick and modern Kamen Rider series, while not being restrained by surrealstic feel of Ryuki's Mirror World. Not to mention it's the first Heisei series to humanize villains to such degree. It felt like human-vs-human conflict like never before.
     
  18. Captain Shark

    Captain Shark Member

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    GP specifically was canon, timelines were just fluid thanks to Great Leader's time travel shenanigans.
    I thought it was good because it was. Chillax, bro. *munches on fritos*
     
  19. scikaiju

    scikaiju science experiment gone wrong

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    Kain watch it with the attacks, if it's still possible on this new version of the board put him on ignore. That goes for everybody who finds Shark's constant bashing of build annoying.
     
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  20. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    According to producer Shirakura, all Taisen movies aren't canon. Only what directly ties to TV stuff. GP3 should be canon yeah, but it's not.
     

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