What exactly is wrong with TV-Nihon subs?

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by kamil88, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. sgtkira

    sgtkira Super Kamen Sentai Rider

    Likes Received:
    0
    I felt exactly the same about that, but Ankh only said it once. I know you don't mean too, but stop acting like he said it every episode :p

    Actually, it wasn't making stuff up. I forgot Kou's explanation, but it was written in a way, where she was being liberal with the translation, but it could be translated.

    I get that you want certain words kept, but there really is no thing such as "overtranslation", it's just turned into "they're translators things I don't like!" No offense, but Japanese is Japanese. A completely different language. If there are words that, by being left, would alienate someone who doesn't understand what it would mean, isn't it best to translate so that person gets it?

    Edit (towards Aruphonse): I read the rest of these posts, and I hate to say it, but you sound a bit entitled. Of course it's your opinion and all, but still. I suggest you at least try and do what I do, show the subs to some family or friends that don't know about Toku. See their reaction to it, and then maybe you'll understand why a lot of people like O-T. O-T makes it so that more people can watch. I'm not trying to bash TVN or anything, but they cater to people like yourself.

    Also, are you studying Japanese by yourself or in a class? Because teachers will never, ever tell you that things should be left.

    And, about character names. If a ranger is named "Ryu", then there's no need to TL it. Even if it means Dragon, people normally don't fuck with that (O-T never would either), but I would like you to know that Japanese people name their children "Ryu". However, Japanese people do not name their children "Giant Poopy Face". So, if a monster is named "Giant Poopy Face", then it's there because the Japanese creators want children to laugh at it. Point and laugh. So it would be a disservice if you didn't TL the name to "Giant Poopy Face".
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  2. Lynxara

    Lynxara Nice post!!

    Likes Received:
    0
    What Ankh said (IIRC) was "fuzakeru na," which is sometimes translated as cursing. How that phrase is handled usually is determined by the genre of the work in question. That is, in gritty crime dramas it's often rendered as something like "don't fuck with me" or "motherfucker," while when it crops up in kid's shows it tends to be more "don't mess with me."

    I am pretty sure it was handled as cursing in the anniversary episode purely because it amused the translator to do so. That's the thing with fan-translation-- to some extent, beggars can't be choosers. Most fan-translators will use whatever style pleases them and, in most cases, will simply stop translating before they'll change their style to please non-paying "customers."

    So nearly a decade of complaining about the honorifics and transliterations hasn't stopped TVN's translator from doing whatever he wants, and I don't think any amount of complaining ever will. People who aren't being paid are ultimately going to please themselves first and foremost.

    I would bet a whole $10 that changes like Rafflesia -> Vileplume have nothing to do with translation needs and everything to do with trademark needs.

    Nintendo of America has to register every individual Pokemon name in the US as a trademark, as part of the licensing wing of the business. Under US trademark law, I am reasonably certain simple nouns like "Rafflesia" cannot be trademarked, while an original compound word like "Vileplume" can be trademarked.

    In general, something to keep in mind when discussing pro translation vs. fan translation is how trademark and copyright law in the US works. Sometimes names will end up having to be changed in published works so the company releasing the localization can register trademarks. Fan translators don't operate under these constraints.

    Even in cases where they're Japanese words, I think people obsess because they memorize them and get mad when this doesn't aid in pattern recognition. I can think of no other reason why a sane person would claim that you are somehow doing a title a disservice if you translate "kaizoku," which means "pirate," as... "pirate." I mean I can see arguing about how to translate made-up terms like bakuryu, but kaizoku is just the dictionary word for "pirate" and is translated as "pirate" in a million billion published works.

    The explanation involves rules for translating place names. As I recall, in Japanese it is typical to follow place name with a kanji that indicates the type of place it is. For instance, many city names in Japanese are followed with a kanji for "city." When translating these place names into English, the "city" kanji is customarily dropped. The same goes for translating names of regions and provinces.

    So iwhen you write the names of purely fictional things in Japanese, you use the same rules. If you're writing about an imaginary world you append the "world" kanji, an imaginary planet gets the "planet" kanji, imaginary aliens get the "alien" kanji you see in Ultraman, etc. The logic behind "Guardia" is a very simple application of best practices. If you drop the "city" kanji from the name of a city, then you should drop "world" from the name of a world and indicate that it's a world some other way that suits how places are named in English. So if you're doing a translation that renders "gosei" as "guardian," then the "guardian world" needs to be Guardia or along those lines.

    It's a basically watertight argument in terms of best translation practices. The only legitimate argument against it I've seen is that throwing it into a crossover special when most people only knew the (poor) way TVN handled the terms was a bit confusing. This is a case where you actually need a more advanced knowledge of Japanese than most fans actually possess to understand how Guardia is actually a more technically sound way of rendering the name than "Gosei World."

    But I think this thread has proven, over and over again, that nobody who complains about translation style actually gives a shit about what is a best practice and what isn't. What complainers really seem to get mad about is having to memorize more than one set of terms for a given show. Otherwise I don't know how you end up with guys complaining that you translated a word that means "pirate" as "pirate."
     
  3. Kalle

    Kalle 変わって欲しくないよ。

    Likes Received:
    0
    Home Page:
    'Guardia' just makes me think of LaGuardia Airport. And now I want to earn frequent flyer miles on Gosei Air or something. THANKS.

    RE: Ankh and the 'motherfucker' thing -- I know it was a one-off thing and I didn't pay it much thought, I just assumed that O-T translated it as such because he's a more 'villainous' character than most SHT focus characters? ( Compare that to however many times the stars on Gokaiger said 'what the fudge?' for instance. xD ) I've actually seen more people get annoyed at the fact that they chose to translate Ankh as saying the word 'retarded' at a couple points over the series.
     
  4. Kamen Rider Cero-G

    Kamen Rider Cero-G is now a pony, it seems.

    Likes Received:
    0
    I could see Ankh using the word "retarded"
     
  5. Lynxara

    Lynxara Nice post!!

    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, I think it's fair to say that maybe QC should've stepped in to help come up with less radical terms than "Guardia" that still satisfied translation best practices. I don't know what those terms are and would probably have a hard time coming up with them, but I think it'd be foolish to argue they couldn't exist.

    At the time, though, nobody had given any thought at all to even the simple fact that translating it as Gosei World breaks all established rules for translating Japanese place names into English. The translation principles involved, I think, are basically unassailable.

    In short, people are arguing "Guardia is wrong" when it really should be "Surely we could do a bit better." I think there is no harm in arguing "surely we could do a bit better," and wish that was more the tone of translation style debates in the fandom.

    That said, personally, I had no problems with Guardia; I was just happy to have a script that finally acknowledged the speech patterns of the characters involved correctly. I give ten billion more shits about that than how setting terms are being handled, and I wish other people did, too.

    I really think it was just to make the moment a bit funnier. I wasn't hanging around the OT guys very much at the time, but if memory serves, I think the group's translator basically hated the anniversary episodes and only did them so the show would have a complete release.

    So while OT will be respectful of Gokaiger's tone because they genuinely like the show, and are 99% of the time respectful of OOO's tone because they genuinely like the show, I think basically no shits were given about the intended tone of the anniversary episodes.

    And you know what? That's okay. If you really dislike OT's approach to translating that episode, you can edit the softsubs or just go watch TVN's version. This is why it is very much a good thing for the fandom that there are now multiple groups subbing things in multiple styles. It will only make the fandom bigger and better over time.

    Yeah, I can see the ableism argument there. If I saw that word crop up in an OT release I was editing, I would probably remove it. (It's never appeared in anything I've looked at for them, though.)

    I don't think it's bad-- in fact, in Fourze, I think it really helps evoke the way teenagers talk. I think in most cases you can substitute stupid instead and get the same effect without riling people, though.
     
  6. Painted_Outlaw

    Painted_Outlaw The new Tendou Souji

    Likes Received:
    0
    And, I did not know that. Learn something new every day and all that jazz. :thumbs:
     
  7. Samurai Karasu

    Samurai Karasu Lurker

    Likes Received:
    0
    The only thing that OT did that made me curious was when they translated the names of Go-Onger villains.However that's because I never realized how many puns were in the names though so it was like a learning experience. Instead of giving me an essay about why they did it during the episode though they just posted in the episode notes why they used a certain name for the character. They explained exactly what it meant and how they tried to make it fit. So there you go.

    Maybe I'm just dumb, but seeing a characters name as "Chirakuzuki" doesn't make me slap my knee and point at TV Nihon and say "You guys just totally get it." It just makes me think, "alright that's the guys name." If I'm missing a joke I'd prefer to be in on it.
     
  8. sgtkira

    sgtkira Super Kamen Sentai Rider

    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree :thumbs: I think motherfucker was more of a joke that got out of hand though (just wanted to add to that). Although, it can easily be changed since there's softsubs :)

    And thanks for the Gosei explanation. I knew it was "right" hehe It's as if you kept an alien's name in Ultra as "Argufu-seijin" (made that up) instead of "Argufuan". (I know you said that, just wanted to spell it out for anyone who doesn't know Ultra :p)
     
  9. Lynxara

    Lynxara Nice post!!

    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, I think if more classic Ultra was translated the whole "you don't need to translate the last kanji literally" issue would be one that was more familiar to fans.

    I've actually done translations like "Baltan Alien" myself, but only in things that are, like, character lists for video games. If I was editing an Ultra release myself, I would probably argue for approaching the alien names as "The Zettonian," "The Baltanian," etc.

    I think that would be the best way of reflecting the naming convention for the classic shows. I could also probably get away with it, too, since Ultra fans tend to just be happy that anything of theirs gets translated ever.

    (That said, there are some shows where I think you may need to translate that last kanji literally. I can't really think of a way to handle Planet Bird from the Space Sheriff stuff that would drop "planet," since the planet's name also happens to be an unrelated common noun in English.)
     
  10. sgtkira

    sgtkira Super Kamen Sentai Rider

    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly. Can't wait to get more Ultra out so people see that :p

    So would I! :D

    I've noticed :laugh:

    Yeah, I think "Planet Bird" only works because it's alien/Foreign and stuff. I would have someone say they're a "Birdian" though, as long as it's established that they are from "Planet Bird" sometime before that :laugh:
     
  11. Midori Ken

    Midori Ken Lurker

    Likes Received:
    0
    There's gotta be a better way, or maybe even some sort of theoretical naming system for planetary genus, even though it's only limited to thing on our planet as far as I know. Kinda like how beings from Jupiter would be Jovians instead of Jupitorians.

    As for ourselves, translating "Chikyujin" as Earthian is pretty god damned lazy. Depending on the narrative subtext, we have Terran (for gritty serious or macho space mariney contexts), Earthling (for invasion stories), or Gaian (for the odd fantasy story that has a scope bigger than that of just one planet.)

    So there has to be something better than "Birdian" for the beings of "Planet Bird".

    How about....Birthers! ...or...Aerians! :p
     
  12. sgtkira

    sgtkira Super Kamen Sentai Rider

    Likes Received:
    0
    But that's the best thing about this stuff. There is no set system! Earthians would obviously be "Earthlings" :p So it could be "Birdlings"...or some shit :laugh:

    Point is that there can't be a set system, especially when most people who want one really mean "I want it my way and no other way" (Not saying anything bad about you though, but look around you may see what I mean :p)
     
  13. Lynxara

    Lynxara Nice post!!

    Likes Received:
    0
    Has anyone ever done this? I can't imagine any context where you'd want to use Earthian instead of the more common Earthling (well, except that one weirdo property named Earthian, where the title is in katakana so you've really got no choice).

    Context gives you a way out here. Generally anyone you're dealing with from Planet Bird is the titular hero of a Space Sheriff show, or otherwise some form of space cop. So, you can just call him a Space Sheriff or a space cop and sweep the rest of the issue under the rug.
     
  14. Midori Ken

    Midori Ken Lurker

    Likes Received:
    0
    That's what they call racial profiling. :p
     
  15. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

    Likes Received:
    39
    Seriously? People got upset over that? :sly:
     
  16. Kamen Rider Cero-G

    Kamen Rider Cero-G is now a pony, it seems.

    Likes Received:
    0
    Because "retarded" is offensive. :rolleyes2: And like I said before, I could see Ankh using that word, because he's a bastard.
     
  17. knightphoenix2

    knightphoenix2 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Say, Wasn't That ...

    Is the guy that is on the TV screen Takashi Ukaji, who used to play XIG Chief Seiichiro Tsutsumi on Ultraman Gaia?

    I think that one of the other commenters has (or had) a short video of him wearing a bright canary-yellow business suit as a "signature."
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  18. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

    Likes Received:
    39
    Hold on a minute, it depends as to what context it is. A retard can be two things. One, it can be offensively used to insult those who are mentally disabled. People who struggle every day to be who they are and use whatever amount of their brain power they can. People who are heroes because they continue on despite their pain and those who laugh at their misfortunes. People who are some of the greatest minds on the planet. The other way it is used is when someone is beyond stupid. Bush, the cast of Jersey Shore, and Kanye West are prime examples of retards.
     
  19. sgtkira

    sgtkira Super Kamen Sentai Rider

    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah it's him. Awesome, right? :laugh:
     
  20. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

    Likes Received:
    20
    I'll take the unimposing Tsutsumi over the insane Kougami.
     

Share This Page

Hosted By: