Unpopular Opinions.

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by rangergod, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. Shougo B'Stard

    Shougo B'Stard Would like to change his avatar

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    Unpopular opinions among the English-speaking fandom is what the topic's about; nobody's trying to guess the thoughts of every fan in the world. (Although, if you spend time at any Japanese forum, you get an idea. And since the English speaking fandom consists of people from all over the world, you can gauge what might be an unpopular opinion within another country's fandom. Like: as Changeman Ambassador, I've talked to quite a few Brazilian fans. Changeman was HUGE in Brazil. But I remember a Brazilian poster here who didn't like it; that would be an unpopular opinion.)

    Anyway, this place might be on life support, but it's not the only place out there, and the English-speaking toku fandom might be even bigger than when this place started. Social media's a shitty substitute for forums, but that's where most of the activity is. Even then, there's still other forums, sites, there's YouTube, as you mentioned. It's not hard to figure out what's popular to the English speaking fans, and whether or not there's enough consensus on what makes an unpopular opinion.

    Like? The English speaking fandom WORSHIPS Kamen Rider Gaim. Worships it. But I think Kamen Rider Gaim is a really silly piece of stupid that had a couple of good ideas that it was afraid to take too seriously, so we got a really dumb show that was basically like if Katy Perry tried to write Ryuki.

    Similarly, not many people in the fandom like Kamen Rider Wizard, so it would be an unpopular opinion to be like "You know what? That show was formulaic, but it entertained me, so I like Wizard and don't think it deserves the criticism when it's no different than most of the other two-episode act Heisei Rider shows."

    Similarly, it doesn't take years of studying at the Actors Studio to tell when an actor stinks. I mean, it might help if you're into acting, and you can REALLY tell, when it might not be apparent to everyone else, but...the really bad ones are noticed by everyone, and tend to be the ones who are even made fun of by Japanese fans. (For example: the cast of Blade or, as already been pointed out in this thread, that terrible, terrible guy who played Fake Amazon in Decade.)

    Now storytelling, yeah, that can be a little harder to tell, because the Japanese enjoy a certain style and prefer things like unhappy endings.

    And for someone who bemoans the lack of activity around here, this is at least the second time I've seen you come in and complain and try to kill an active thread! And you already posted an unpopular opinion, so it's too late to complain.
     
  2. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Who, me? :) That seems a little uncalled for, don't you think?
    And to think I was REALLY loving everything you had to say, but then you added in that last part...

    I admit that sometimes I can be a bit abrasive, and I apologize for that. I can be a downright pessimistic so-&-so sometimes, and I probably need to do better. But I've never tried to kill a thread's activity, and if that's the impression you get from me, then I can assure you that you are reading/projecting too deeply into it.

    Notice in my previous reply, I opened with a question: "What makes a tokusatsu opinion popular or unpopular?"
    From the very beginning, I was encouraging further conversation. That's all I ever wanted. If I wanted to kill the activity here, I could have easily just said something like "There is no realistic way to measure this stuff, and this thread is a waste of time", but I didn't. And bringing up the lack of activity here was just me further illustrating that it's a little harder to collect an opinion census. I love this place! And I sincerely wish there were MORE people here! If I really thought less of this message board, I would have left a long time ago.
    But hey, maybe you're right about something. Maybe delving into a related topic is still the same as going off-topic, maybe voicing my "unpopular opinion" completely null and voids my right to make social commentary about it completely, and I should therefore just shove it or save it for a new thread entirely. Which is completely fair; a perfectly legitimate point to make. I'll try and stay on topic from now on. On that note, should I go ahead delete my previous reply? The last thing I want to do is ruffle any feathers. ;)

    (And just this once, I wish I could change my viewable username to "Samurai Bemoaner"...)
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  3. Shougo B'Stard

    Shougo B'Stard Would like to change his avatar

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    ^ If that's the case, my bad. I thought it was unusual, because I remembered you'd as an affable guy from Japan Hero.
     
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  4. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    We're cool, fam.
    *On Google search for "affable" later...* Ah! Thanks (I'll be sure to remember that word for later). I'm glad I left a somewhat positive impression. :D I'll admit, I didn't always have positive things to say there, but I'm glad my best self was mostly on display.

    And since we're going there...

    I don't think the topic starter specified English-speakers only or everyone in general, but I'll go with your logic for now. This speculation topic was made for English-speaking fans. :) Maybe it means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but I'm always a little surprised what is or is not popular/recommended among Japanese fans.

    I know, for a while, many Japanese people were talking about KakuRanger. To me, that's surprising. I would have assumed that, since ninjas are part of their culture, Japanese fans wouldn't care that much about a show about ninjas. But then again, Naruto also got really popular, so maybe it's about how the story/subject matter is handled, like you pointed out.

    ...Also, really? That's news to me. Decade's Amazon aside, I thought the acting in Blade was fine. I may need to go back and watch it again, but I didn't really take away any negative acting experiences. But I think I understand what you are trying to say. Even if we put cultural differences aside, taste is always subjective, and what people consider "good acting" will always change from person to person. Is that right, or am I reading too deeply into your message?

    Did Koichi Sakamoto direct "GIRLS IN TROUBLE - Space Squad: Episode Zero"? While I don't automatically agree with your stance on fan service in tokusatsu (I think it depends on how its done), I remember watching that prologue, and not liking it at all. The whole thing just gave me this creepy, uneasy feeling. It was a grind to finish; like I was watching someone's fetish turned into a sleazy horror movie with a superhero afterthought finale. I don't think that special even had any plot significance to the actual "Space Squad" movie.

    Again, cannot agree enough with your views on Decade's Amazon. Everything else was great, but as an English-speaking fan from America, I really can't get over how lazy it sounds when he yells "A - ma - zon!". Just doesn't have that same wild oomph as the original.

    Also, would you believe you're not the first to dislike Zi-O? I still stand by my opinion that it's one of the greatest Kamen Rider anniversary series so far, and that this is what Decade should have been. But I talked to a friend on DeviantArt recently; not only were they a big fan of Kamen Rider Decade, but they really didn't like how Zi-O was presenting the previous Riders.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  5. Toku Prime

    Toku Prime Member

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    ToQger was not a well written show, but pretty much every other aspect of the production was really well done. In particular the music managed to make transformations and mech combinations seem awesome again, and the actor who played Akira (ToQ #6) was an MVP.
    There's a longstanding rumour that Blade is a bit notorious amongst the Japanese fandom specifically for it's acting. The rumour goes that the directors of Blade encouraged the actors to speak as naturally as possible during their dialogue scenes, even if it meant that they didn't say their lines perfectly clearly. Supposedly they took this to the extent that the show got a reputation for it's "constantly mumbling" characters.
    Oh you bet he did. He also did the Kyoryuger movie where the villain, DeathRyuger, had two female assistants whose names were derived from the Japanese words for "chest" and "legs". And the Fourze/Wizard crossover movie (Ultimatum?) where pretty much every big fight scene is an excuse to look at one of the female characters' legs.

    To be fair, I made out in my last post as if he always does this and it isn't all the time by any means. For example he was one of the main directors on Ultraman Geed and while that show does indeed have a main character who is an action girl constantly wearing tiny pairs of shorts, I can't recall any point where the camera drools over her. So either he has some restraint or Tsuburaya can still rein him in.
    Oh I got the impression that Zi-O generally went down about as well as a fart in a crowded elevator, at least until Decade showed up and dragged it in another direction.

    But I guess that goes back to your point that it's difficult to tell which opinions are common and which aren't. For example, if I look at my twitter feed I might get the impression that general opinion on Kamen Rider Gaim has drastically fallen. Or it could just be that I follow Shougo and he's one of the only people still tweeting about that show after five years.
     
  6. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    Gaim has been a heaven sent at the time, because franchise was dying from the lack of the originality and that series was a breath of fresh air for both me and many other fans.
    Nowdays we have more competent shows like Ex-Aid, Build and even Drive (which I dislike, but it does some things pretty well) doing Gaim's stick arguably better than Gaim itself, so people can evaluate it more critically.
    Gaim is okay show. It does have great moments, sort of falls apart during Overlord arc, but doesn't really suffer from this much and ends up a solid character-driven show, not to mention one of the more different Urobuchi works.
    This one deserves its popularity.
     
  7. scikaiju

    scikaiju science experiment gone wrong

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    Ultraman Max is overrated, I know a lot of people really enjoyed it and if you did more power to ya, even mention the show by name when somebody ask where they should start first, but it was the closest I ever came to hate watching something. It was mainly the comedic tone of the show that soured me on it. I mean when it did a serious episode it did it well, and as strange as it sound the one episode I actually like was the one with the giant round space cats, mainly because that's where I though all the cheesey stuff actually worked. Amd it's not like I don't enjoy slight comedic or lighthearted shows, I flew through Ultraman 80 and enjoyed Den-O, hell I grew up watching reruns of 60s Batman. It just that a lot of it felt forced to me.
     
  8. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Don't sweat it. I completely understand where you're coming from, even though I never saw Max outside of the first one or two episodes.
    Comedy, especially in higher abundances, has always been something that has left the fandom divided (at least the English speaking side of it, anyways). It kind of speaks to what I lightly mentioned about how hard it is to find majority opinions on stuff in Tokusatsu.

    For example, AbaRanger was once infamous for not being enjoyed simply because the series had a bit more comedy in it. This was being said during a time where Chinese bootleg subs were the only subs available. If you examine other earlier Super Sentai, you will find there are plenty of shows that had comedic tones, but somehow AbaRanger was getting negatively critiqued for this. (Maybe because older shows from before the 2000's and some of the 90's don't count for some reason?) And yet, years later, the fans began to change their tune. I began to see more and more people saying AbaRanger was a good series. Even I saw it in full, and I enjoyed it. (Could this be because the series was finally subbed by Imagination Station, and therefore more readily available for people to watch and enjoy?)

    And of course, it's also an interesting look into what each individual person wants. There are fans who just want an action-heavy series that takes itself "seriously" and don't want anything funny, optimistic, friendly, or encourages "the feels". EZ Rider, a toku reviewer with his own video series, completely hated Fourze simply because Friendship was a central theme and the heroes found other ways to win besides mindlessly killing enemies in the usual tokusatsu flair. However, I'm of a different mindset. I don't think tokusatsu needs to be dumbed down to these base elements. (I mean, for goodness sake, we have rainbow colored heroes in spandex. Relax!) If tokusatsu is ever to grow or to be taken seriously by the public, they need to allowed to explore different themes and different narative ideas. This means every once a while, we need to see things like a show where Friendship = Power, fruit themed samurai warriors, doctors who are gamers, and so on (and yes, I loved all those shows). Not every show or story might pull it off perfectly, but even if they don't, it's a good learning curve at least. It helps make "better" shows in the future. And if comedy is subjective, then different expressions of said comedy will hopefully connect with someone.
     
  9. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    Not killing enemies is pretty common tokusatsu theme. It's usually made for kids after all, so plenty of creators took a more kid-friendly approach. Good example are early (and well... recent) Ultraman shows, where many monsters often weren't really evil (being simple animals and all), Ultraman let plenty go and even helped some. Or Carranger where almost ever villian ended up good in the end.
    Accusing Fourze of this is weird to say the least, not to mention show had plenty of much bigger issues.
     
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  10. Bennu

    Bennu New Member

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    far as toku songs are concerned, I take Project DMM over Rider Chips any day (and I'm more of rock fan). It's just that I find DMM Ultra songs to actually feel like songs that fit the genre while I find many of Chips songs to be just generic rock songs in my opinion
     
  11. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Like I said, some people in the fandom just want a tokusatsu show that takes itself "seriously". The darker and grittier it is, the better. EZ Rider always seemed like the kind of guy who likes that kind of thing. And I think that's fine in some things, maybe for western/American super heroes. But even that can get dull and boring after a while. Or as some people call it; try-hard.

    But it's cool that Fourze is not the only one guilty of exploring these themes! That makes me want to explore more Ultra titles.

    I remember Project DMM from Mebius. I agree, their music was really fitting! They aren't afraid to make orchestral music that is uplifting/inspiring/whimsical/heroic. After Mebius, I always thought they should be the official band of Ultraman.

    As for Rider Chips, I liked them as the official band of Kamen Rider. They brought in the attitude that the franchise needed, but they understood the appeal of the Kamen Rider brand. However, in later years, the band kind of got stuck in their own genre, while also wanting to explore a career outside of Kamen Rider. For most Rider shows, I think they work. However, for some shows, I think it's better to let other bands have a chance. For example, I don't think a Rider Chips song would blend well with Hibiki, Double, Gaim, and Ex-Aid (and maybe Ghost too). In fact, you could argue that they barely work for any of the Rider shows after Double.
     
  12. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    Rider Chips did a few songs for Wizard, so I'd say their presence slowly vanished after that.
    I find both RC and DMM extremely dull music bands. Former is just pretty average rock music which has very samey feel and gets old very fast. DMM is another of those groupes that apes "old school" aestetic (for Ultraman in this case) and their songs start to blend together after a while as well.
    They have some decent songs, but as far as I'm concerned Project R blows both groups away.
    Also, I wish doa did more tokusatsu stuff
     
  13. Shougo B'Stard

    Shougo B'Stard Would like to change his avatar

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    I've loved Abaranger since it aired, so I know what its reputation has been like -- at the time when it divided people, and more recently when it's been more accepted. I think what happened is...Abaranger was a very, very quirky show. It wasn't just comedic, it would throw some really off-the-wall stuff at you at times. (It had a crossover with a cartoon, for cryin' out loud!) There had been comedic Super Sentai shows, of course, but not one that really reveled in quirkiness. Add to this that, at the time, the English-speaking fandom was worshipping Heisei Kamen Rider -- shows like Ryuki, Faiz and Blade, where everything was overly dramatic! and super serious! So, Abaranger just looked stupid to a lot of those people.

    Well, little did anyone know what bizarre turns toku was going to take. The people who thought Faiz and Blade deserved to be on HBO could have never predicted something like Den-O. And Den-O, with all of its success, has influenced so many of its successors -- both on the side of Rider and Sentai -- to be big, bright, bonkers, toyetic. So, if you're accustomed more to toku from the past several years of decade, and you go back to Abaranger? What was once a show jarring in its weirdness just seems like business as usual. Remember when people used to get so hung up on the time one of the dinosaurs played a piano? Well, what's *that* compared to some of the nutty stuff seen since?

    Another thing -- the current climate with Marvel movies being so popular, and those movies being fluffy yukfests that don't take themselves seriously. So, nobody wants ANY superhero thing to take itself seriously anymore, and everybody wants every superhero show and movie to be goofy. Goofiness is now way more accepted. After years of trying to get superhero tales taken seriously, it's now opposite, and that's a shame. Not everything has to be Watchmen -- I kinda hate Watchmen -- but not everything needs to be Captain Planet.

    Well, I also think that's just something that's keeping with a lot of Asian philosophy, and things like Japan's warrior codes and whatnot. America likes their violent tales, dammit, and we need to make sure the bad guy or the one who's been pestering our heroes gets his comeuppance, preferably a bloody one! It's violent, but it's cathartic! And we like our happy(ish) endings -- we need our happy(ish) endings. If you want your hero shaking his villain's hand at the end of the story, then you're a pinko hippie.

    I can't speak for that guy who disliked Fourze for its friendship stuff, but for me it never worked because it all seemed so flat and phony. Gentaro didn't have a personality, he just had that character habit he'd repeat. He was like a robot with a program, not a person, and certainly not a person who cared genuinely enough to change psychopaths like Miu or Shun or JK so easily or quickly.

    And I think there's just a sort of "This is what we get?" reaction for the 40th anniversary of Rider. That corny guy who, despite being dressed like a punk, is a pinko hippie, with no real Kamen Rider-ness to it. (Koichi Sakamoto being its main director doesn't help that the show feels like the closest Kamen Rider's ever been to Power Rangers.) It's still weird to me that Japan, in 2011, thought a show which paid homage to '80s John Hughes movies (but IN SPACE!), was the winning idea that kids would go for.

    The Rider Chips were GREAT when they first started out -- back when it was about Yoshio Nomura seeking out mainstream rockers with a similar love for Kamen Rider in order to give the newly returned and refreshed franchise a similarly new sound. The band's music not only came from love of Kamen Rider, they wanted to push the music to new areas. What the Rider Chips were doing was pretty different for Kamen Rider; songs that sounded more hip and mainstream and not like the commercial jingle a traditional theme might sound like.

    And, since they would use different vocalists, there *was* often a different sound to each song. What glam rocker ROLLY contributed was different from '80s blues fan Diamond Yukai, which was different from what eccentric Kenji Ohtsuki contributed, etc.

    Things took a turn for the band when the label forced them to take on Ricky as permanent vocalist. Ricky's not a guy who has a love for the franchise, so that same magic wasn't there. Ricky sings every single song in the exact same way, so that contributes to a lot of the songs just sounding the same. I feel like the original Rider Chips trio have stopped enjoying it all. I feel like they no longer have the love for it.

    I don't really like Project DMM. I'd like for Project.R -- Super Sentai's band -- to be a little less sloppy, though. There's 320 members and growing, and a few of my least favorite Sentai singers are members. So, for me, the bands representing each franchise are all a little disappointing. (Project DMM and Project.R even share a member! But Tsuyoshi Matsubara's not one of the Project.R members I have a problem with.)
     
  14. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    I think Fourze did relativly better on that front than something like Kyuryuger to which I'll happily apply all those arguments (King is like a hundred times worse than Gentaro). With Fourze I really caught myself not hating Gentaro nearly as much as I expected. Show managed to restrain his overbearing presence with Yuki and especially Kengo, so I never felt he was taking too much screentime. Him not really being relevant to the main story at all is also a positive thing here which helps him.
    Still not very fond of the series, but I think Fourze managed to strike a nice balance with the type of character Gentaro is supposed to be compared to many similar shows. Even if that doesn't excuse how show treats supporting cast.
     
  15. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    What Shougo said about Gaim, "a couple of good ideas that it was afraid to take too seriously", I say describes Fourze more than it does Gaim. Gaim and Build have been more successful compared to most other Phase 2 Heiseis in delving into its material, and I still think Gaim is one of the best shows of that period. Fouze had a disturbing setup, what with an alien-worshiping cult running a high school looking for recruits, but the show never wanted to stray too much from being cheery and "UCHUUUU KITTAAAAAAA!" Especially when they started breezing through the remaining Horoscopes: there was an opportunity for a multi-episode Liveman-esque setup with Yuki/Aquarius and JK/Capricorn. But nothing really came out of it.
     
  16. Bennu

    Bennu New Member

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    In my opinion DMM's entire Ultraman Mebius soundtrack blows away anything Project R has done and that includes the 8 Ultra Brothers movie tie in.
     
  17. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    I'm fine with Mebius songs and I think that's my main issue. I want to feel more than "fine" from the best tokusatsu anniversary show ever made.
    DMM usually try to sound grandiose and glorious, but still have that calm and unenergetic feeling about them. That's fine sometimes, but DMM almost always does this thing. You listen to Project DMM song and you know it's a Project DMM song. They feel empty like a lot of early 00s mech themes that try to tap into that 70s shows energy and just don't sound sincere (not all of them fail, but plenty still do). I want to feel pumped up about watching Ultraman, same way most of Sentai openings make me hyped. Even less than stellar series like Kyuryuger, Ninninger or Kyuranger still have some of catchiest and most energetic songs in recent toku (especially compared to how badly Riders struggle with music nowdays). No matter how bad a Sentai series can get, at least I can look forward to music albums with knowledge that at least some of songs would be good (or maybe even great) and I contribute that fully to Project R.
     
  18. Toku Prime

    Toku Prime Member

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    This was inspired by the 'Post Gokaiger Sentai' thread but I figured that it should probably go in here instead:

    Yes, Super Sentai is basically "red ranger and his amazing friends". They are the main characters. This is not an ensemble show.

    I'm not saying the seasons are better because of this (points at GoGo V and how it's red was an a-hole to his siblings throughout only for the show to continually congratulate him on how well he "takes care" of them) or that people can't enjoy a show more if it proves to be one of the rare exceptions to this.

    I just don't understand why there are still people who are shocked when a new show begins and the red ranger takes center stage? It's been the default state of the franchise since at least the early 90s, if not earlier.
    I do like the super-catchy theme song, but otherwise I can't say I really enjoyed Max either. Crunchyroll should have put Mebius out first lol.

    Also, Max was the show where they made new suits for a lot of classic Showa era monsters, and Tsuburaya really need to do that again because it's been over thirteen years since then and they're STILL using those same suits every year. Considering how hot the actors get inside those outfits, they must smell like sweaty death by now. It can't be pleasant (or hygienic) to put them on. And some of them look really tatty now. Poor Eleking is just a mess of wrinkles.
    They were pretty upfront about that though. I think from the very first press conference they were very clear that as the first toku show to go into production after the tsunami they wanted to provide kids with some light-hearted escapism while the real world was a horror show of missing people, destroyed homes, and potential nuclear meltdown.

    I think Fourze really handled it's big emotional moments well, but sometimes it's sense of humour was "I need to switch this off and go do something else for a while" levels of awful. It has some of my favourite and most hated moments in all of Rider, all in one series.
     
  19. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    Red-centric shows are fine if they done well.
    I'm not a big Shinkenger fan, but it handled (literal) Red-worship aspect expertly.
    On the other hand you have annoying Reds like King or Leo basically robbing everyone else of good character moments and just foricng their way into scenes where they _are_not_needed_ I can't count how many times I was angry with Lucky butting in what should feel like big emotional moments for Stinger or Kotaro.
    Not to mention, both Kyuryuger and Kyuranger had 10/12 Rangers in team and having such big focus on a single one sticks out even more. Lucky was always go-to guy for pep talk with other members, all while Spada or Hammy could be basically removed from the show without changing anything. Give them SOME of the Lucky moments at least. He's Red, he's already in the center of attention.
     
  20. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    What are you talking about?

    That doesn't mean it's a good thing. And frankly the 90s shows weren't that Red-centric anyway, especially when you compare them to the recent shows where Red gets almost all of the new trinkets, not even any special development or plot significance necessarily.

    Which is a mistake to me. They did the same thing with Ohranger, and the result was a schizophrenic mess of a show. A theme of "triumph over adversity" would make complete sense after such events as the tsunami and Aum Shinrikyo's sarin attack.

    But if they insist on a "light-hearted" show, then don't have a plot that screams for something more "dark".
     

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