The Inconvenient Truth: Kamen Rider Build is the worst toku in history

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by Captain Shark, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    X did not make the coins. They were just involved with Kougami in some fashion. And yes, the origins of the belt do bother me, since we still have a European belt speaking Japanese for no reason whatsoever. It's stupid on top of its irritating singing.

    You do know that Yasuko Kobayashi wrote Ryuki, Den-O, OOO and Amazons, right? You're also aware of what Phase 1 and Phase 2 refer to, correct?

    Kuuga through Hibiki at least (and I'd even include first half of Kabuto) are by and large better than Phase 2 as a whole. Better tone, better characterizations, tighter writing. I won't say better stories as Phase 2 does have good stories, they're just not written well many a time or are plagued by stupid characters doing stupid things to create mood whiplash.
     
  2. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    No, I have never heard anyone use Phase 1 and Phase 2 for riders before. They aren't the MCU. I've only heard Heisei and Neo-Heisei.

    Also, I don't care which ones Kobayashi wrote as her writing is hit or miss, more often a miss. Outside of Toku, she's done the piss poor adaptations of Death Note, Claymore, and Attack on Titan.

    I can't agree with you on Kuuga through Hibiki though. Kuuga has a shitty ass ending that ruins the show as a whole, though not as badly as 555's lack of an ending.
     
  3. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    See, no offense Kain, but this is kinda why it's sometimes hard to take you on your word on these topics, since you seem oblivious to things that are common knowledge in the fandom. :p

    I was comparing all of Kobayashi's shows, as I stated in my post. Ryuki and Amazons are her best out of her Riders, Timeranger out of her Sentais. As for Kuuga, I think you need to watch it again.
     
  4. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    My bad. However, I did not realize she had anything to do with Amazons.

    As for Kuuga, I do plan to watch it again when a competent fansubber subs it properly using the BDs.
     
  5. Toku Prime

    Toku Prime Member

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    Oh yeah, from a practical standpoint they already mentioned she was getting weaker so just throw some reverb on the voice of Misora's actress or something. But you never know what's going on with contracts and how that might affect things.
    C'mon dude. Phrases like this read like you're being condescending in order to bait him.

    Opinions are like assholes: everyone's got one and they're all full of sh*t. No exceptions. Not me nor you or anyone else here. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make them "wrong". It means they see something different in it. We're all here because we like this stuff.

    Besides, neither of you mentioned how awesome Den-O was! ;) (see above sentence about opinions).
    They got shown briefly in Double with some Core Medals. Probably equal parts early cameo and Double's writer trying to foist the Foundation onto his successors, who completely ignored it. But it was because they were trying to 'obtain different powers for themselves', not that they made 'em. Same as how they didn't make the Gaia Memories they just funded and dealt with Museum, who did make them.

    The backstory in OOO is that the medals were made by alchemists for a European king 800 years ago. That king was the first OOO, and was resurrected in the summer movie.

    In the film 'Heisei Generations FINAL' they finally establish that Foundation X has since managed to replicate the process and create their own Core Medals. Which was handy because when Eiji turns up he doesn't have any of his medals with him for some reason, except for the halves of Ankh's broken Taka core.
    So when Toei started work on Decade they disbanded the production crew that had worked on Kuuga through Kiva and created a new one. Obviously this doesn't include the important people like writers, producers and other fancy-pants "creatives". Just the ordinary shmo's operating cameras, rigging lights, serving lunch etc. The Japanese fandom started referring to the nine shows created by the first crew as "phase 1" and the shows with the new crew as "phase 2".

    It appeared in the English-speaking fandom pretty quickly, most often being used by people who don't like the term "Neo Heisei".
    I have come to appreciate what they were doing with the Kuuga ending, but I totally understand the point of view of those who would have preferred a spectacular final battle instead of two dudes scuffling in snowfall so heavy you can barely see them.

    The thing about Faiz having no ending always confused me though. I mean, I don't like that show (yes, Inoue, we get it, you only have four episodes' worth of ideas and you're just going to tell them over and over in every Rider show you work on and nobody's going to fire you because your dad basically co-created the original series) but I never felt like it was a cliffhanger ending.
     
  6. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    It wasn't necessarily the fight in the snow that was the issue, it was that we never actually saw Kuuga defeat Dezuba (or whatever his name was). It also didn't help that the last two episodes were so jarring compared to the rest of the series. I seriously thought I missed an episode or something between them. That also ruined my enjoyment for the finale.

    As for 555, the last ten episodes were an utter mess to me. From the sudden convoluted introduction to a King Orphenoch to the random third party Orphenoch Hunter army that served no purpose at all, the show completely lost me in credibility. Add on top that the King Orphenoch and Lobster girl were left alive, we never got to see the showdown as the epsiode just abruptly cuts to Takumi and gang chilling on a hill just as he is about to perform a rider kick, it all left a bitter taste in my mouth. It was like I was eating a slice of pizza, nearing the end of it, and then I had one of those puke burps that ruined the taste.
     
  7. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    "Reads" and "is" aren't always the same.

    To be perfectly honest, I hate this cliche. Everyone states their opinion as though it's an irrefutable statement. This "that's your opinion" sentiment I've come to notice stems from those who just don't like what the other says about something they like or dislike.
     
  8. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    I've gotta agree with Black Fang here. At least, I think I am understanding what he means. I don't see why everyone should always have to state it is their opinion. It should be pretty obvious when someone says something like, "<inserttitle> is the best <whatever>!" that it is their opinion. I'm tired of the over sensitivity that when you quote someone's post, they automatically assume you are attacking their opinion.

    It's one of the reasons I made one of the rules of my own forums on my website be "2. Try not to take offense to anyone who does argue with you. They have the right to their opinion as well and are not attacking you."
     
  9. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    Agree with with this, but have to disagree on your every single other point.

    Subjectve. I personally found Build humour incredibly refreshing after literal years of godawful Den-O inspired "jokes". Build was hit and miss in humour department, but I did find one of the more funny seasons in the franchise.
    I would also recommend you to rewatch Drive, if you want a definition of "bad tonal shifts".

    Monsters of the week in "Phase 2" Kamen Rider have been good twice exactly. First instance was W and second was Fourze. Other than them, there is not a single "episodic-driven" season in the last 10 years which wouldn't drastically improve if you remove them. Not that formula itself is bad, modern Kamen Rider just used it incredibly poorly and some of the worse aspects of modern shows come because of how terribly they usually executed it. Especially ones like Drive and Ghost which relied on story a lot and came off with a lot of pointless padding because of just how much pointless filler they had. Plot-driven approach has its own issues (and Gaim, Ex-Aid and Build all have them), but it leagues above sitting through another variation of "here's your guest character, please care about him for the next two weeks, bye".
    Also Build technically had a bit of motw, it's just the show bothered to actually tie-up them with the story this time.

    Can agree only partially, I'm not a big fan of how Build handled Rouge in general, but I wouldn't call it bad either, and what we ended up with wasn't terrible or anything. Just not nearly as good as it could have been. In case of Grease, character actually improved immensly after he changed sides.

    If you mean Dad Build, he had a place in the story and was important for Evolt eventual defeat. I think final strech of Build episodes is full of problems, but there is difference between being an underwhelming story element and a red herring.

    And Kiva. And OOO. And Ghost. And Wizard. And Den-O. Riders have been doing this for ages. Toy-gimmicks aside (Build isn't really an offender here as well, it's more of an issue with the whole franchise), characters prefer to use stronger forms. That's development. I never understood why people have such a big problem with this approach. Hell, Build literally calls it "evolution", since characters raise their powers constantly.

    Both Gaim and Build had incredibly relevant politics. Build's issue that a lot of it came off underwhelming, but they were important. Show's literal premise tells you about country's separation into three factions. How are the politics unnecessary?

    Name a season with better camerawork than either those two or Build than.
    I hope you don't mean Koichi "look at my shaky cam and long explosions" Sakamoto.
    I don't think any season looked more "alive" than Kuuga (even though CGI was so bad), but Build has a lot of decent shots.

    I refer you to my first comment about Drive.

    Partially agree. Overall focus on Evolt is an issue, but Build spends a lot of time on the main cast and there is not a single character from Sento group who doesn't get at least some development. Grease is a standout from me, since I didn't really like him all that much during his introduction arc, but he really shone through near the end. His final episode was leagues above actual finale.

    Build's problems lie in resolutions and payoffs, not builds up. First arc specifically takes a lot of time to properly cook Banjou as a Kamen Rider and we see his hero journey in details. I don't think there are many things in Build that felt like they came out of nowhere (Rouge's weird character shift is the only thing I can think of) Even most of stuff I dislike was properly set up at some point in one form or another, If anything, I often hear people complain that plot twists are predicatable.

    Every single Rider debut since W had weird stuff like this. In Build's case they sort of gave an explanation, even though it wasn't a particulary convincing one. Then there is stuff like Hazard Levels and their role in the story and balance of power.
    But again, I don't get why Build specifically is guilty of this.

    I don't remember any useless female characters in Build at all (unless you count Vernage, but it was mostly because of production issues). Both Sawa and Misora were relevant to the story and had a lot of character dynamic with male cast members. Sawa perharps less so, I give you that, but if they were useless characters, than every single female character in Kamen Rider after Tackle ever was useless.

    True, but it's nothing new for the franchise. Only a few shows had actually satisfying finales. And compring final battle to Decade and Hibiki? Seriously? At least comare it to Wizard, OOO or Drive. Build's ending falls into "eh, that happened" category, but at least unlike Decade and Hibiki, it actually freaking happened, had big ideas and was unconventional in some ways.

    Most of drama in Build served a purpose. It did relativly better on that front comapred to Gaim (Micchy stuff aside) and 555 and much much better compared to Kabuto, Den-O, Kiva, Wizard, OOO, Ghost or Drive. Some of it was cliched and by the numbers, but show mostly managed to tie drama to character development.

    They did give it an explanation which makes more sense than anything Rider multiverse offered so far.

    So which shows do you consider to have good music? Ghost OST felt great and inspired after years of samey hi-tech pop music.
    Build music wasn't as bad as Ex-Aid (with its two or three music themes constantly playing), but it wasn't all that memorable either. I personally found it okay.

    That's downright untrue. Build has story stuff happening in almost every single episode. Accusing it of having a fast pacing I can understnad, but slow? It's probably the most story-driven show in the franchise, leaving behind even Gaim with Ex-Aid.

    I personally think that OOO is the worst Kamen Rider series by far (unless you count The First/The Next movies), but I don't think even I can go as far with OOO as you went with Build.
    That's your opinion and all, but you probably need to give it a bit more context if you want others to take it seriously.
     
  10. Captain Shark

    Captain Shark Member

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    It has issues, it's not Build. Also I don't rewatch things.
    Yeah, no, monsters of the week are the best thing in television history and are needed in a franchise centered around them.
    Ghost barely had enough monsters of the week. Also both it and Drive were plot driven plenty.
    And yet those turn out to be worse than most MotW series.
    He had character? He's exactly like everyone else in Build whose dialogue can be summed up as: "Attention everyone! My mouth is talking with dialogue! I will now use these letter to form words and sentences pointlessly to eat up time! Behold my group in this talk-o-rama!" And that is all there is to any of them, just blabbering.
    He's probably the most useless rider, you could cut him out and change nothing but episode count.
    Incorrect, base form has a significant amount of screen time in those, in Build you wonder "wait didn't he have a base form on the poster?".
    And evolution is not always benefitial, I'm sure sabertooth tigers having their jaws penetrated by their own fangs would completely agree.
    So relevant that cutting them out of the story would dramatically improve them.
    It's just blabbering that amounts to nothing. It eats up screentime and nothing worthy comes out of it.
    First series, V3, X, Amazon, Stronger, Skyrider, Super-1, Black, RX, Ryuki, Faiz, Blade, Hibiki, Kabuto, Den-O, Kiva, Decade, W, OOO, Fourze, Wizard, Gaim, Drive, Ghost, and Ex-Aid.
    I don't know who that is.
    Because it is the worst example of this. In fact it is the worst example of every bad thing this franchise has ever done.
    They were easy to write out, they hardly did anything most of the time.
    I said "many entries" for a reason. Also why discount those from the original series, V3, and X?
    Those finales did not end on cliffhangers which makes them better by default.
    Having a reason to be there does not make something good or bad.
    And it only damaged the franchise in the process.
    The original series, Strong, Skyrider, Black, RX, Faiz, Kiva, OOO, Fourze, Wizard, and Drive.
    Every single minute and scene were a chore to get through, time itself felt stuck in the mud waiting for seconds to just move. It was slow pacing. Fast pacing means it isn't a chore to slog through.
    I believed I gave plenty context.
     
  11. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    That's up to you, but plenty of shows have things you can really notice on a rewatch when you're familiar with them.
    When you claim something as big as "the worst tokusatsu show ever" you at least have to make sure you didn't miss anything, misunderstood some things or maybe just wasn't in the mood to watch it. As I said, my least favourite Kamen Rider show is OOO and I've watched it about three times total. Usually when I simply dislike things, I put them under "not for me" and that's the end of story. If you try to showcase Build as "the worst tokusatsu ever made", you'll obviously get people questioning your claims with actual facts, so you can't just use "I didn't like it" argument. What you liked or didn't like doesn't have anything to do with any "Truth".

    There are different ways one can incorporate them. Just because show uses motw, doesn't make it good by default. If you like motw in general, that's fine. I like them as well. But if you're claiming that motw is superior to story-driven shows, that's just your opinion and (again) it doesn't have anything to do with overall quality, which you don't even judge here, since you're biased towards motw-driven shows in the first place. Plenty of people liked Gaim, Ex-Aid and Build, so there is an audience for story-driven Kamen Riders, both in Japan and in the west. You have to at least consider this, if you claiming the whole approach is wrong in itself.

    Build didn't end on cliffhanger either. Main villain was defeated, story was done.

    You were the one who said drama in Build served no purpose. It did. Whether you like it or not is a different matter.

    "fast pacing" has nothing to do with you liking or disliking show. It literally means "moving or developing very quickly". Are you gonna claim this definition doesn't fit Build?

    Politics in Build was the primary tool for Evolt to advance his plans.

    So are you against character development in general?

    You just made big statements (some of which are objectively incorrect) without elaborating on them whatsoever.
     
  12. Captain Shark

    Captain Shark Member

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    Yes I am going to claim that. If Build had fast pacing it wouldn't be the worst toku, that title would still go to Daimajin Kanon. Most things I ever give a 1/10 be it toku and anime have one common trait: Slow pacing. Infinite Ryvius, Key: The Metal Idol, Fate/Stay Night and Zero, Active Raid, Serial Experiments Lain, and Skull Man all have slow pacing; Those Science Freaks, Eiken, and Holey Pants are just disgust. It's more common in toku: Kamen Rider The Next, Kabuto, Reigo, Dogora, Daimajin Kanon, Bio Planet WoO, they all have slow pacing. What makes Build different is the run time and unlike Kabuto doesn't have a redeeming feature like monsters of the week.
    Only when it is unnecessary. Besides, you were talking about taglines there and implied all change is good.
     
  13. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    Character development is unnecessary? You're the only person I've seen in the fandom to ever make such a claim.
     
  14. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    Build had slow pacing? o_O Go watch Black Rx and 555 and come back to say Build was slowly paced.

    Also, what Black Fang just asked.
     
  15. Captain Shark

    Captain Shark Member

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    I've seen Black RX and Faiz, the latter might be slow at times but it wasn't every episode and certainly not to the crawling degree Build did.
    After seeing as much movies, toku, and anime as I have you come to an inconvenient truth: The whole "only plot and characters matter" mentality is just meme, false information too many people believe. Other aspects count just as much if not moreso.
     
  16. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    You're retarded. Character development is quite important. If I wanted to watch wallpaper, I'd stare at my wall.
     
  17. Captain Shark

    Captain Shark Member

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    I am not intellectually restrained, I am however able to point out character development is not as important as people claim it is. Wallpaper has nothing to do with this conversation. If I didn't know any better I'd say you are trolling.
     
  18. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

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    Well it takes one troll to know another troll.
     
  19. scikaiju

    scikaiju science experiment gone wrong

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    Home Page:
    Okay gentlemen just a reminder to watch the derogatory statements or words.
     
  20. MagiShineDX

    MagiShineDX Captain

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    Don't give 2 shits what anyone says about Build, I think it was a pretty good series. Skipped Drive, Ghost and Ex Aid and decided to give Build a chance, was not disappointed.
     

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