[DISCUSSION] Kamen Rider Zi-O, Episode 47

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by SamuraiEchidna, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

    Likes Received:
    21
    [​IMG]
    A lot of time and effort went into this...

    Welcome to the discussion thread for Kamen Rider Zi-O, episode 47; "2019: "The Vanishing Watches".
    (Episode title's translation may vary depending on your fansub group of choice.)
    This week: Strange occurrences happen all over Japan, from a strange wall dividing the country to Sougo's Ridewatches mysteriously losing their power. With Tsukasa's powers, Tsukuyomi takes Sougo to her original timeline to investigate as an army of Roidmudes led by Mashin Chaser stand in their way.

    This thread was made with Toku Prime's permission. And remember, this is a SPOILER ZONE! If you are trying to avoid spoilers, this is not the place for you.
    HOWEVER! This is not the place discuss future episodes nor next-episode previews. You may discuss previous episodes and related subjects, but stick to the episode at hand. Please be considerate of those who haven't watched ahead yet. Thank you.​
     
  2. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    Another Zi-O II Watch is now a Deus Ex-Machina that can reverse time without ever being used to transform to revert Tsukasa back from the dead (which was a pointless scene).

    The only two characters I liked from Drive was Chase and Heart, and them bringing him back here was nice, but again, it's kind of inconsequential. Doesn't matter what they do with him in the next episode, they could have done that on a spin-off sequel rather than the Mashin Chaser movie we got (which was like mediocre at best since the "robot gains feelings" trope has been done to death but better in other medias).

    Aqua dying somehow was the trigger to "harden" Sougo, which is ridiculous. You barely knew the guy. This has always been my problem with Sougo. He gets triggered into caring about people, it's almost like he has no personality of his own. I mean, look back at the Kiva episode (to which I don't think we've ever seen the Kiva Armor, or Blade armor, or even Kabuto or the Agito armor at all). In that episode, instead of using Kivat-bat's voice actor voice Ginga, they could have had Kivat-bat be the one who hands the Kiva Ridewatch to Sougo. But of course, paying Jiro's actor to come back saves them the hardwork of actually doing CGI (to which, I say the cost of is probably higher than just letting someone come in and do the CGI work). Or, Another Kiva could have been Kivat-Bat who got turned into Another Ridewatch instead of the pointless romance plot they have going for Sougo.

    You see, you'd expect something like losing a loved one would make Sougo harden. Not another Rider who he kinda had almost no relationship with prior to their meeting dying. Yeah, I enjoyed seeing Aqua back, and seeing him fight Eternal and all that, but Jesus, could these guys be more inept at storytelling?

    They also missed out on making Another World where Aqua remained as Poseidon and have them fight each other.

    Tsukasa becoming Zi-O was like, okay, I get it, we're going for the double effect of two anniversary show Riders, one acting as the senpai-like figure and the other the kouhei. But if all it took was the Decade Ridewatch to get Tsukasa half his power back to be able to transform, you'd think he'd ask for it back sooner than after getting blasted by Swartz and needed Kaito to reverse his death for him.

    Kaito becoming Zi-O II was also completely unnecessary. Just because they both share Rider Summoning powers, doesn't mean it's applicable in any sense to make him shift from one to another from a writing standpoint. This is just, and repeat after me, LAZY WRITING. I don't care if anyone likes this show, it just shows you've never written anything in your life or wrote too much fanfiction to begin with or even read good books or comics/manga.

    There is a universal standard for how things work, Joseph Campbell even wrote a whole book on the Monomyth for a hero's journey. It's fine to subvert it and deconstruct it, IF YOU KNEW THE RULES BY HEART. Clearly, Zi-O's writers don't.

    Just compare it to Watchmen, a true subversion and deconstruction of the Superhero genre, or Hunter x Hunter, a deconstruction of the Shounen genre, and compare that to stuff like Star Wars The Last Jedi and Sword Art Online (both are trash).

    These kinds of stories require no hard work. I could crank out something like this in a few weeks to months. Just because you put effort into doesn't mean it's hard work. And hard work doesn't mean it's good work either. I worked hard scrubbing toilets once as a janitor, and even I wouldn't call that good work.
     
  3. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

    Likes Received:
    13
    I never took HxH as a deconstruction, just author actually being creative and interested in exploring what you can do within shounen genre, instead of rehashing DBZ and Saint Seiya again and again.

    It was still one of the best things to come out of Drive. It was refreshing to see Chase relevant for the first (and pretty much only) time since early 20s again, even if his gaiden doesn't excuse how show ended up treating him. Getting away from tiresome main plot to a little sellf-contained story with different villain was nice as well.
    I like all three Drive's gaidens. They are what they are, but still generally a big step up from painful mediocrity of tv show.

    Well, duh. Just look at writers Shimoyama and Mouri and their other work. Ninninger and Kyuranger - both are pretty messy series to put it lightly. Though from what I've heard about Shimoyama, he's likely just writing down whatever stupid ideas Shirakura might have. And Shirakura is... well, Shirakura.

    On a side note, I never understood appeal of Aqua. He was a filler in his own movie with very rushed introduction and banal characrer arc. First Super Hero Generations games brings him of all people back and now Zi-O does the same.
    I don't hate Aqua, just curious what people see in him.
     
  4. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    Well, there are plenty of examples that could be pointed to Hunter x Hunter being a good deconstruction in a sense, the most famous examples are like when Gon completely "transforms". Usually, transformation sequences are meant to be a sign of hope in Shounen. Look at DBZ's moments of Goku's transformation. There's also the entire narrative about Nen, in that it took a page out of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and went to great lengths to explain how each of them work, and even that isn't completely set in stone. There's also the case that it begins off like Pokémon, i.e. kid with an absentee father who is one of the best Hunter/Pokémon Trainers in the world (except in Hunter x Hunter, Gon DOES meet Ging, whereas in Pokémon, Satoshi never grows up and the father plot point is dropped so fast like a hot mess).

    Yes, I do agree it was one of the best things that came out of Drive. The problem here is that, we are stuck in this mentality of "oh, at least that was better. This was worse than it was the last time". Like, we accept things because it was "slightly" better than what we previously had and relegate what is truly "good" and compartmentalize it as some obscure part of history as if it was only a product of it's era and culture, which isn't true. Great pieces are timeless, because they are inherently good. That's why I rank that Gaiden as mediocre still. Sure, I loved the involvement with Accel and all, it made sense, but it's still on the mediocre scale of things, even if it's on the "better" side of mediocrity.

    I'm not a big fan of Aqua either. I thought his suit looks too "slapped together last minute" ish for my taste, but I liked the idea of a water-powered Rider instead of wind with a design that pays respect to the original double Riders. I thought he was wasted in his own movie too. I also understand the reason for his Jet ski is because he's a reference to another hero Ishinomori created, and I liked that in the sense at least it pays respect to his legacy. Outside of that, I felt like Aqua didn't need to be a key player or anything in Zi-O at all. If anything, Aqua should have been given his own Gaiden to expand on his story, maybe make the suit look better.
     
  5. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

    Likes Received:
    13
    Most of Rider Movies are bad anyway, so gaidens are legit improvment over rubbish Toei usually ships into cinema (just compare Gaim movies and gaidens). At least with Chaser gaiden there was an intent to tell a character-driven story (even if it's not the most original one) and not whatever the hell Drive was trying to do with main plot.
     
  6. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    Like, I give the Chaser Gaiden a high score already in all of the Gaiden's Toei's ever released. I think the core of my issue with it was that it wasn't trying to do something original (that's just me, speaking as someone who objectively looks for originality constantly).

    I can applaud it for it's character driven focus, but there's a lot of things I also don't understand about the usage of some of it's symbolisms and metaphors. Why the need for the overplayed symbolisms of wings for that Gaia Memory (the whole fallen angel narrative, and that Chase is now set free due to being able to "fly away with his emotions") as well as the Rhino Viral Core. What does the Rhino symbolize, when it comes to Chase?

    Like, Chase was a very cool character, with great lore behind him being Proto-Drive and all that. His journey from Hero to Villain to Hero again was refreshing to see, but it was all muddied by Drive's uncertainty about which character needed the center focus the most.

    Like yeah, I enjoyed the Chaser Gaiden more than anything Drive offered. Which brings me back to Zi-O bringing him back to just capitalize on your nostalgia for his great moment of redemption again, which is distasteful, even if it's "epic".

    Also, it seems like Zi-O is overplaying it's own narrative when it comes to these returning Dark Riders. Previously, Eternal was all "I am Shinigami". Now, Chase is also all "I am Shinigami". Are we gonna tally off how many characters called themselves "Shinigami" throughout the entirety of Kamen Rider history? Now that's just redundant.
     
  7. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

    Likes Received:
    13
    Since it's a catchphrase both characters use, Zi-O can't exactly do much about it. It's more of a thing with Phase 2 seasons rehashing themselves in general.
    Since so many actors from W and Drive are big names now, I can't exactly blame Zi-O for the choices (weren't there some worries that pretty much no Riders from Drive could return, because it's not easy to get any of them?).
    They managed to get back so many characters from Drive in one way or another (pretty much everyone relevant, aside from Kiriko and Drive himself), so at least fans of the show got more than, say, fans of Fourze. I just don't get why they didn't pull Kabuto tribute again. Bring back Krim belt again and make Chase become a proper Drive. Easy way to get actual Drive in this tribute. Sounds like an obvious idea, isn't it? Instead we get Krim in the movie for some reason.
    As for W side of things, it's a shame they couldn't get Renn Kiriyama back. He frequently elevates all crossovers he's in just by his presence alone. Would have been nice to see first and last Riders of Phase 2, since we likely won't get Godai (unless Toei's saving him for final episode or Zero-One crossover, which seems unlikely). Maybe get some sort of closure on W/Eternal thing after Eternal Gaiden as well.
     
  8. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    See, that would have made more sense to make Chase Drive than to make Kagami Kabuto. Kagami was firm in in his role as being Gatack. With Chase, becoming Drive would simply be becoming what he was meant to be from the start anyways.

    I'm not a big fan of Fourze, I dropped it after a while and only watched clips here and there of it to get the gist of it (Decade style). So yeah, I can't really care about it or Wizard, because those were the first two series that made me drop Kamen Rider for the first time in my life, having grown up on DVDs and VHS of every single Kamen Rider show there was.
     
  9. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

    Likes Received:
    8
    Maybe because they can't get actor for Krim and Chase in same schedule. BUT, they definitely can get Krim and Go altogether in movie so actually they can Kabuto tribute style with Go transform to Drive.
    And in Drive, no one really fixed to their default transformation like Kabuto and Gattack. Mach have shareable device with Drive which turn them into Deadheat form which only have slight modification for eachother version. Drive get upgrade in movie which resemble Mashiin Chaser. And Chase, is proto Drive.
    Unlike Kagami which having Gattack Zecter as his turning point to become himself. As far I know, there is no meaningful reason for Krim to choose Tomari, except for his body. If Go completed his training earlier, maybe Krim will choose him as Drive. I mean, he even ask Kiriko first rather than Tomari.
     
  10. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

    Likes Received:
    13
    I'm not a big fan of Fourze either, but if show is supposed to celebrate Heisei Riders, it shouldn't just ignore some series (although since most of Fourze main cast is pretty much unavaliable, I guess it can't be helped).

    I think ZI-O finally convinced me that Gokaiger/Mebius-like anniversaries just won't work for Kamen Rider. Too many actors don't care/can't afford to return to the franchise. Most of people who have returned have been doing Climax Heroes/Battride War games since 2012 or so and Toei have been just lazy to get them back before (and they also managed to get Takeru Satoh for like one scene?). It's a shame, but that's how it seems to be. They tried to bring as many people as they could for Build/Ex-Aid movie and most of them still can't share a single scene untranformed. I don't think we will ever get something like Legendary Seven scenes from Stronger ever again.

    Krim is pretty much just the belt, so it's an issue with voice-recording instead of physical appearance. It's more easy to do and they could have recorded his lines during shooting of the movie (I assume it took place in early spring, likely that's why they could make Go to appear in that Brain special thing).
     
  11. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Member

    Likes Received:
    38
    One of my friends said that for a show that only has 2 episodes left, nothing feels like it is winding down.
     
  12. raden238

    raden238 Member

    Likes Received:
    30
    So we went from time travel destruction plot to Decade's multi-world destruction plot? Amazing, even the last scene of the episode was straight out of Decade. Tsukasa was still able to retain his Rider powers, because he somehow manage to only put "half" of his energy into it.o_O

    I agree with Japaneseseriesfan, the whole Tsukasa death scene and Kaito using the Another Zi-O II ridewatch to save him ala reversing time was pointless. I guess the writers just wanted to put more weight on the scene and show the stakes involve, so characters are now officially dying.

    This episode was fun to watch, Decade using another Phase 2 Kamen Ride was great and this just felt like a Decade episode. So I guess it's confirmed, Zi-O really is just a remake of Decade's story. Hopefully we get a complete ending this time.
     
  13. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

    Likes Received:
    21
    For a show called Zi-O, this had way more to do with Decade than anything. They brought back the Decade-style multiverse, and Tsukasa managed to recover some of his powers. The final panoramic shot really gave me goosebumps! I am kind of sad that DiEnd lost that Another Ride Watch, he could have used it to bring back Aqua (assuming he really is dead, but I still have my doubts). And Schwarz proved he is still a villain through and through, he’s just trying to justify it with that “I’m saving my own world/timeline” excuse. But doing that has nothing to do with him wanting to seize Sougo's power for himself. So basically Schwarz is the SJW of the Kamen Rider franchise. :p

    I think you misinterpreted some scenes in this episode.

    Sougo isn't "hardened". He may be a bit upset or rattled, but I wouldn't say "hardened". And even if he was, it's not because Aqua died. It's because Tsukuyomi's life is still on the line. Remember, Schwarz gave him an ultimatum: Defeat him and Tsukuyomi dies, or become Oma and she lives. And furthermore, for a hardened character, Sougo's actually taking it pretty well. Because what does he decide to do? He travels Tsukuyomi's past to get more answers. Why? Because he doesn't want to play by Schwarz rules. He wants to find a way to save her AND prevent the rise of Oma.

    Tsukasa probably didn't get the other half of his Rider powers back for the same reason why Kaito was holding back on using the Zi-O II Another Ride Watch. They were both saving that power as an element of surprise, for when they'd need it most. It's possible that Tsukasa didn't think young Schwarz would try to destroy Sougo/Older Tsukuyomi, in which case Tsukasa had to make a split-second decision, and asking for his Ride Watch back wouldn't give him enough time to save them. The drama behind the scene is a little forced, but not completely without some logic.

    Though I do want to hear more about why you think it was so unnecessary for Kaito to become Zi-O II, preferably without comparing it to other pieces of fiction as well as insulting fans of the show. It's been established since the being that Another Ride Watches tend to have a habbit of possessing their hosts and bringing out the worst in them. And if this watch is a reflection of Zi-O's powers, it's easy to assume that such a watch would be a bit more aggressive about possessing whoever uses it. Or is there something else about the scene that made it pointless? I really want to know!

    P.S. You can insult the show itself all you want, but I don't think you or anyone has the right to insult anyone's personal taste. I have no respect for anyone that tries to thought-police others on what's good and what they should like, especially when they use "you've never done it before, so how would you know" mentality as an excuse. Maybe you've heard this before, but I don't need to be master chef to know what a good burger tastes like. I can agree with you that Zi-O has become a bit too convoluted in the later half of the series (even I often feel like I need notes and a few stretches of logic to make some of it work), but that gives you no right to insult anyone who likes this show. And if you don't like the show, you don't have to keep watching it either. If you're still watching it for certain reasons, then maybe you can respect that other people might have their own reasons for watching it. (Makes me wonder, if you really were a janitor as you say, would you understand the plight of other janitors doing the same grueling work or would you give them a hard time for not cleaning stuff the same way you would?)

    Isn't that a good thing? :cool:
     
    Hangyakuno likes this.
  14. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    Sorry, my train of thought broke since you said I "insulted" fans of the series. If saying you like something that is objectively bad is an insult, then you're in for a world of pain being triggered by nonsense. I like the Pirates of the Caribbean series, but even I admit it's objectively bad. You know, it's okay to like bad media, right? Just don't try to vouch for it to be good and make up excuses for it. Jeez, I can admit that OOO is an objectively bad series but still like it. The same with a lot of stuff in Ex-AID, but I will NEVER try to justify it and make stretches in logic just so I can come back at someone and say I feel insulted just because they didn't validate my personal preferences.
     
  15. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    And yes, I would tell the other janitors I shifted for that they didn't clean it properly, because now it's my job to clean up the shit stains they didn't bother to. Doesn't matter if it's a grueling work, you either do it right or you don't.

    Sorry, but I wasn't even "thought-policing". If anything, that seems to be like what you're doing more "you can't say so and so because we feel insulted". I was simply giving my knowledge on what I've learned and considered to be good storytelling, you know, from actual professors and reading books and experiences. So no, your argument about not being a MasterChef but being able to tell whether a burger is good is kind of irrelevant. It's like saying the food taste good, but not realizing it's the insane amount of MSG they threw in there (which is bad for your health) that made it taste that way to begin with.
     
  16. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

    Likes Received:
    21
    It's fine. No one here is triggered. I was just calling it like I saw it, and I even thought about editing my thoughts down to something more simple and less strongly-worded. But let's carry on, shall we? :)

    And I never said Zi-O was a masterpiece either. Then again, I'm not the one telling people to go watch Watchmen or Hunter x Hunter instead. I also try to avoid sentences that could be misconstrued when they start with "I don't care if anyone likes this show, ...". I was actually trying to build a bridge of agreement with you when I said how sometimes I feel like I need notes to keep up with Zi-O. Meaning, I wouldn't recommend the show unless someone was ready to go through some logical leaps to enjoy it; they'd need to be in the right mind set and willing to give it a fair chance just because it's not a "good" piece of fiction. Things indeed can be objectively bad or objectively good, a.k.a. good or bad just because they don't connect with someone's personal taste. But that's the key phrase in all this, personal taste.

    Good or not, everyone has their own life experiences, and everyone has their own sense of personal taste. I think we're both smart enough to know that personal taste is subjective. And whether we're talking about Watchmen, Zi-O, or anything in between... It's all fiction, my friend. Just a piece of escapism for whoever wants it. Nothing to get so shook over. ;) I'm willing to bet that the both of us could have great, productive discussions about fiction, deconstruction, and so on. I just think time and place matters too.

    Well in that case, thank you for giving your educational experience to... whoever asked for it, I guess. Personally, if I was running a restaurant, and the MSG burger really was the most popular item on the menu, then I'd respect that. I might offer other, more healthy items as well, but I would still offer the MSG burger too because profits talk. BTW, I wasn't talking about anyone you exchange shifts with, I meant fellow janitors in the general sense. But it's nice to know that you have no sympathy for people who have to do the same kind of work. At least now I know where you stand on the matter. :cool:
     
  17. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    Okay, you really need to stop re-contextualizing things I say because that's how you took it. I never said "Go watch Watchmen or Hunter x Hunter instead of Zi-O". I brought those up as examples of great deconstructions of the genres and how to subvert expectations properly in a story.

    I understand you're trying to build a bridge, but honestly, "I don't care if anyone likes this show" won't help you bridge with someone who is taking notes on the show, which I think is pointless.

    Nope, that's where you're all wrong. Things can be good or bad, REGARDLESS of personal taste. You realize, you just missed the entire point on why I've even been responding, right? I don't really care if people don't ask for my opinion, I see it as a duty to spread the correct information about objectivity vs subjectivity as much as I can. I can have a discussion anywhere, regardless of time and place. I couldn't care less about social norms. I was born with an extreme case of ADHD, and no one ever catered to my needs, I was always expected to adhere to "social norms", until I realized being me, without taking any pills, is much, much more freeing and I learn things faster than normal people do.

    And no, I feel no sympathy for people who become Janitors. They didn't lose an arm or a leg, all that happened was 1. You got unlucky in life and need a job or 2. Got no education and this is the only thing available. Just because someone is in a low paying job, doesn't elicit some type of sympathy. If that were the case, why don't you show sympathy to everyone you meet that isn't in a high paying job? I have respect for people who do these jobs, not sympathy. It's the same as not giving a sick person sympathy because they don't want your sympathy. You will NEVER understand the pain someone goes through in cancer therapy, so the last thing they want to hear is your whinny "I'm so sorry". Respect them and their will power, but don't insult them with your sympathy.

    Also, if you're really gonna advocate for selling MSG Burgers "because profits", I have nothing to say to you anymore in the future. That's the type of mentality that destroys families, and dare I say, destroys great fictional franchises. You realize, money is just an idea, right? They just slapped numbers on it without even thinking of the repercussions. I'd rather have an economy where we have a barter system, and the value of each thing is calculated by it's efficiency and nutritious values. For example, if an orange is more nutritious than an apple, you'd have to exchange two apples for 1 orange. I couldn't care less about the concept of money to be fair, but I only care about it because I need to earn to live, otherwise, anyone who thinks selling something that is bad for health for profit, I would never talk to, ever.
     
  18. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

    Likes Received:
    21
    You know what? I think I will.
    Your posts, including this last one, have read like someone who is extremely defensive. (Or maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see.) You're still wrong about some things, and I stopped caring about the rest of your post the minute you decided to mention cancer patients. (Also, I think for once I can say this without being warned or banned: F*** you for making a commentary on how I would treat cancer patients. My grandmother has been wrestling with that for years. Hope you feel better about yourself now.)

    I have tried to hear you out so that we could reach an understanding and maybe both come out of it this feeling equally acknowledged. However, we have only managed to steer far away from talking about this episode, and it's clear to me that you only care about being right than trying to reach a mutual understanding. So you know what?

    You win.

    You're correct on everything.
    Your logic is flawless, your education is perfect, and anyone who dares question you is wrong. Thou shall have none smarter than Japaneseseriesfan. And I'm done with this conversation. I'm gonna move on now. I'll see you elsewhere. Congratulations.
     
  19. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

    Likes Received:
    12
    My point was never about winning. It is simply about logic overruling nonsense you vouch for. But whatever, you got triggered, decided to take things personal instead of seeing things for what I said. I have 2 relatives who died from cancer, and I saw them fight too, doesn't mean I understand how the pain felt like. I never said anything about how you would treat a cancer patient personally. Again, you take this in the extreme case and do this mental gymnastic to come back with a response. Any personal examples I've given you about myself is all at the expense of me to make a point. Any personal examples you've given about yourself (which is almost none) is to illustrate how you think what you think is right without actual points to back it up.
     
    Black Fang likes this.

Share This Page

Hosted By: