[DISCUSSION] Kamen Rider Zi-O, Episode 38

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by SamuraiEchidna, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    [​IMG]
    Time's up; you can't Worm your way out of this one.

    Welcome to the discussion thread for Kamen Rider Zi-O, episode 38; "2019: The One Chosen by Kabuto".
    (Episode title's translation may vary depending on your fansub group of choice.)
    This week: After destroying the meteorite, the Time Riders learn that an even larger one is on the way with Sougo and Woz attempting to destroy it despite Another Kabuto's attempts to stop them. Meanwhile, Tsukasa leads Tsukuyomi to a strange house so she can learn a shocking truth.

    This thread was made with Toku Prime's permission. And remember, this is a SPOILER ZONE! If you are trying to avoid spoilers, this is not the place for you.​
     
  2. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    So they repeat what they did to hibiki.
    Actually Kagami become Kabuto is something unavoidable, he is the only cast which close enough to be one. But is it necessary to add dialogue where they are get acknowledge from previous user?

    Because in case of Kabuto and Gattack Zecter, they didn't choose their user but to wait for them to grow to their standard as they are programmed to choose those user anyway.
     
  3. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    In Hibiki's case, there were multiple things they could have done to avoid Kiriya becoming Hibiki. One would be having Hibiki appear in suit only and use his stock audio tracks, or two they could have had someone else become Hibiki in Kiriya's place because I don't think it was ever the theme of Hibiki's story to begin with to chase after someone else's mantle. I mean, that was the point of Todoroki's arc, when he decided to take on the name Todoroki instead of taking on and succeeding in Zanki's name. They could have easily done this, but no, we needed the unlikable Kiriya to be forced into becoming Hibiki because just when he was finally admitting that he wasn't right to become the next Hibiki, they backtrack that development of him finally calling himself Kyoki and becoming his own man, to let him become Hibiki just so Zi-O could get the Ridewatch.

    With Kagami becoming Kabuto, that's more acceptable, but still problematic. I think it was stated at some point that the Gatack Zector was supposed to be one of the most powerful Zectors out there. It established him as an equal to Tendo in the main series, since Tendo seems to be the more experienced fighter, but the boost Kagami gets out of Gatack kind of levels that, and this is outside of Tendo having the Hyper Zector to pump himself up even more and being the primary main protagonist, and a sense of coming into his own, that he didn't need to be like Tendo to be considered a hero, that was kind of the point of him becoming TheBee at one point. He kept trying to prove his worth with becoming TheBee and in a sense, competing with Tendo. It wasn't until he finally realized he needed to be his own person and own his identity that the Gatack Zector finally acknowledged him.

    Having Kagami become Kabuto just pretty much tells us "oh, so if Tendo was never in the story, Kagami would have gotten that Kabuto Zector from the start and we actually didn't need to bother giving him all that development just to end up here".

    Like, I get it. Hiro probably is too big to come back to play Kabuto. But again, they could have easily done the same thing I mentioned with Hibiki. Appear out of suit, stock audio, and with Kabuto's case, the clock up will actually help explain why his appearances are so limited. He's in and out pretty fast.

    But of course, this is Zi-O. It's going to use the most of the returning actors as it can since Decade got heavily criticized for not doing so, even if the returning actor's character already had an established development or route they should go to next, that doesn't matter because they can just write it out of the story since Zi-O needs his Ridewatches.
     
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  4. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    I have different idea, rather than make them come in and out suddenly, why not use side character to give them Ridewatch.
    I mean Wizard was given from Nito, even W was asked Fumen owner to deliver his Ridewatch.

    Todoroki, our closest clue about Hibiki, can be the person who deliver Hibiki Ridewatch, and give it to Kyosuke after he prove his worth as teacher. Just to make him get feel to be his idol. Rather than make Ridewatch appear magically and break Oni system and lore.

    Here in Kabuto episode, it can easily fixed just by replacing Kagami dialogue when accept Kabuto Zecter. Kabuto and Gattack Zecter only obeying their original user, so the only reason Kabuto Zecter come was because Tendou order it to help Kagami. Tendou can actually communicate with them, he can negotiate with his Zecter, proof for them to have their own intellegence and do something their user told them to. Kagami can said something like he be grateful for his all-knowing friend still watch over him, rather than thinking Kabuto Zecter choose and acknowledge him because he know how their Zecter was bit different than other due they already assigned to Tendou and Kagami rather than choose and select their master.
     
  5. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    Well, that was an easy fix, like I said, there were multiple ways they could have gone around it. The reason I didn't suggest side characters giving them Ridewatches was because it feels very lackluster. Like, they bothered enough to have Fourze show up for a bit, to de-transform into a fill-in for Gentarou, yet couldn't be bothered to do the same for the other characters.

    I understand the need to like, try other creative ideas, I think it's a nice thing to do (having side characters showing up all the time to hand out Ridewatches in place of the main character can get repetitive and boring), but like, you gotta decide which ones best compliment the story of Zi-O, and doesn't break the lore of the previous shows. In Hibiki's case, it would just seem like someone else becoming Hibiki outside of anyone we know of should have been the best option. I mean, it's also a metaphorical admission from the writer right, that "sorry, we fucked up Hibiki and pretended to be him".

    Like, the way I see it, I had a big problem with how Kiriya was sitting there and Sougo tells him "it doesn't matter if you weren't the real Hibiki, to Tsutomu, you were." because to me, that sounds like the writer was kind of saying "it doesn't matter that the second half of Hibiki sucked and wasn't really Hibiki anymore, because to plenty of other kids who had no idea about writing in general or the problems the staff had, it was a great show and it is still Hibiki!" It's like, I just saw Kiriya as a big projection from whoever was writing the episode, completely drowned in their subjective experience and validating that by finally having Kiriya become Hibiki, despite the fact that if he ever takes up the mantle, it means Hibiki failed as a mentor.

    Like man, talk about cutting the development AND validating the fact that Kiriya being Hibiki means they didn't understand the philosophy behind the first half of Hibiki at all, because becoming Hibiki meant embodying the philosophy as well.

    But, outside of the Hibiki stuff though, I really felt like they did Yaguruma dirty this episode. He's just going to be constantly stuck in "I'm in Hell" phase for like however long that remains an iconic thing.
     
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  6. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    Sounds exactly like something that Shirakura would try to do to defend all the shit he's done to the show.
     
  7. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Hey everyone! Sorry for posting episode discussions and my replies so late. An out of town family member has been visiting, and my family and I have been using all our free time to be with her. So if updates here are slow, blame me. It's hard to juggle both, and since family matters more than some random TV show from Japan, well I hope you can understand where my priorities would be.

    Anyways, there is so much to unpack here…

    So I guess it’s canon now. Kabuto is from a different dimension/timeline. Fans have speculated this before, but I guess it’s canon now. And somehow, Kabuto’s timeline is intersecting with the main timeline. This really puts a new spin on the nature of crossovers… Either way, I guess this is why Zi-O’s way of collecting Ride Watches has changed, because multiple timelines are merging upon him and he’s not just traveling through one timeline anymore.

    Still, I loved this episode. This was a way better payoff than the Hibiki arc! If you saw Kabuto episode 1, then you know this was a nice way to handle the arc without Kabuto’s original actor. It started with Kagami trying to become Kabuto himself, and it ended with him finally getting his chance. All things full circle, and he did it by finally believing in himself. There can be only one Kagami and there can be only one Tendou; but in the right circumstances, either of them can be the one and only Kabuto. And if definitely works better since Kagami was always there from the beginning, unlike some unnecessary third-wheel character that was tacked on at the end and didn't actually get a fully-flushed-out character arc. I know some people might disagree with me, but I thin presentation matters. This two-parter didn't bash you over the head with Kagami's feelings of inequality, it didn't focus on Kagami constantly trying to be Kabuto and failing. It just takes elements that all ready existed from the Kabuto TV show and made the most of them as best they could. And I believe it works.

    And last of all… I don’t know where they are going with Tsukuyomi’s story, but I like it so far. Clearly her fate and her Time Jacker powers are intertwined with Sougo’s destiny. What we may end up seeing is a character arc way better that Natsumi’s (the girl who traveled with Decade). But for now, we’re about to usher in the golden armor of a king…
     
  8. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    I forgot about it. Kagami remember about what happened original series, but look like he was doubting his own memories. What happened with Shibuya Meteor? He questioned this event but somehow easily shrugged it off like it is only happened his imagination. Maybe this is connected with distorted timeline where Tsukuyomi past reside. This is feel weird, like they want to build a plot twist but feel afraid to share any hint for it.

    What makes me disappointed with Kabuto tribute is not because Kagami get Kabuto Zecter. He is one of my favorite character in Kabuto. He is by all means worthy to handle it, but the way his dialogue is, like he was inherited something better than Gattack Zecter. Well they didn't directly put Kagami's envy as story but it is still there. Kagami remembering about his first encounter with Kabuto Zecter and his defeat against Kabuto. It is like put all fault to Gattack Zecter, even though what is really determine Rider strength most in Kabuto was their Zecter user. Kabuto Zecter didn't reject Kagami, it is just flying straight to Tendou. Because Kagami already destined to Gattack, just like Tendou to Kabuto. The Zecter can be used by another person due to same belt system, usually because they feel better resonance with that person, but those beetle Zecter was never choosing anyone. Why now Kagami felt disappointed for not get choosen by Kabuto, he already have Gattack and it is only Zecter who rivaled Kabuto power if not because Tendou have unlimited plot armor.
     
  9. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    I don't know, I don't think the episodes worked in the overall sense. It worked in the sense that, yes, they were able to wear the Kabuto skin and recapture some of the feeling of Kabuto, but the essence of Kabuto is not there. Like, none of these shots remind me of the way Kabuto was shot either, which is something they would bother to do for Den-O in later episodes.

    I could bring up more points about why this didn't work overall, but I'll be opening up a can (more like meteorite) of Worms that can honestly be dismissed as purely subjective observations, meaning that if you didn't catch all of that in your viewing of Kabuto (which I watched at least 4 times over), then you can dismiss it all as my opinion. My goal isn't to convince someone to agree with me anyways. If you don't see it, you don't see it. I wouldn't want to ruin people's enjoyment of an episode, but I do think it's important to understand that you CAN like something that is objectively bad. I like Tendou as a character, and even I know he's objectively written in such a way that like doesn't make any real sense. If anything, I wouldn't say he has plot armor. More like extremely unrealistic levels of luck.
     
  10. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    Well, I thought story can be more intense when they have few toy left to promoted. Maybe there is not enough plot twist reserved for Zi-O, because they think they will have full hand with 20 rider double episode arc. Lot of actor mean they spend more money for it. They can't even bother to use stunt actor to potray main character like they did to Fourze and Wizard. Agito is the last and the best we can get for the first ten heisei rider tribute episodes.

    Tendou was mean to be unique character, always did everything perfectly minus heart to felt empathy to anyone outside his family, even though he declare he will do justice to something as small as amoeba.
    But I think extremely unrealistic levels of luck is a plot armor, even though I still count his perfect calculation to dodge every attack with clock up speed from blind spot as his own skill. Something like how Perfect Zecter show up from nowhere is truly plot armor, still cool though.

    Kagami was meant to be opposite of Tendou, careless, brute fighter with best arsenal before cast off. But still have heart so big to give mercy to Worm with perfect copy of child memories.
     
  11. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Even if the Kabuto TV show said that the Gatack Zector was the strongest, I still have my doubts. They really have to prove it me through action/visual representation. Tokusatsu hero shows have a habit of introducing a character/device/power-up, calling it the strongest, but then making its overall presence on the show equal to any other hero. The same can be said for Gatack. That kind of Rider power was definitely suited for Kagami's rough and tumble style, but at the end of the day, Gatack isn't much different than any of the other Zect Riders. His arsenal was amazing, but it's not like he was one-shotting monsters and other Riders. If the movie is canon, he couldn't even beat the gold rider Caucasus.

    To me, when Kagami met Sougo, he seemed older. Not just his actor, but the actual character himself. If Kagami has been fighting Worms for a long time even after the Kabuto TV show, then maybe he is a slightly different person now. Maybe he's not as wild and rough as he use to be. Maybe now he's ready to be a bit more focused and fight a bit more elegantly, like Kabuto. All he needed to do was believe in himself and stop waiting for Tendou to help save the day, and that's why the Kabuto Zector was willing to acknolledge him for once. And it probably is just this once. If Sougo returns all the Rider powers to their owners by the end of the series, chances are Tendou could easy regain his Kabuto Zector again. Just because he's worthy, I doubt Kagami would want to keep it anyways.
     
  12. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    Well, my problem with plot is not "Why Kagami get acknowledged by Kabuto Zecter?" but "Why Kagami must get acknowledged by Kabuto Zecter?".
    He hadn't any desire to be Kabuto because his desire was only to become Kamen Rider or get hold of power to prove his justice. He got TheBee when he put his faith to ZECT's justice and finally Gattack came to him after he found his own justice. He want Kabuto Zecter in earlier episode was because he believe that Zecter was only solution to defeat Worm until he learn about existence of other Zecter, and after that he never show any intent to become Kabuto until this show (um, he want to be as strong as Kabuto in HBV, though).

    It is true that to defeat Another Kabuto, we need Kabuto power. But did Kagami really need to say Kabuto Zecter acknowledged him? He was already lost that desire since he get his first Zecter and Kabuto Zecter was not designed to choose anyway. I mean, in next arc, will Momotaros have to say to his Den-O Pass that Ryotaro acknowledged him to become Den-O? No, because Momotaros was already his own Den-O apart from Ryotaro's Den-O and Rider Pass have no authority to choose.
     
  13. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    I think this is inaccurate. Tendou does have empathy. The biggest scene I can cite for this is his fight with Tsurugi. He could have killed Tsurugi really fast in that fight, but you can tell he was clearly pulling a lot of his punches, and even before he pressed the trigger to unleash his Maximum Hyper Typhoon, he hesitated, mostly because he knows how much having a human life means to Tsurugi. Heck, Tsurugi's the one who has to remind him of their promise to defeat all worms.

    Tendou is a jerk with a heart of gold. There are just moments where he clearly overplays his jerkiness for the sake of keeping his heart of gold hidden from others. I just see him as someone who has trouble opening up to others due to what he went through, seeing his own parents be killed by worms must have really soured his view on the world, and when the two people in the world who you're meant to be able to tell anything to is killed, you're bound to close yourself up and push people away for your own sake so you don't risk getting hurt any further. Tendou is just pretty good at it. Compared to Dark Kabuto, whom I'm pretty sure has Tendou's memories, he's a reflection of how much Tendou needs human connection, plus add what he's been through, that intense need is amplified which is why he's so childlike and becomes even more so to the point of being childish with Hiyori.

    The point is, Tendou is a lone wolf. He's strong enough to not need others. It's pretty obvious when you take into consideration that he's the one who gets the Hyper Zector. He's the only one who can be there for himself in a sense, although having Kagami and Hiyori around occasionally grounds him and reminds him that he doesn't always have to be on guard.
     
  14. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    Also, Tendou talks a lot with his eyes. I think this is just Hiro's great acting ability at work here, but he says a lot but just giving you a stare and a gaze.
     
  15. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    Of course Tendou get development throughout series. I agree he keep hiding his own kindness. But, he still see himself above others, he never include anyone in his plan. Maybe it is because he know noone can keep up with his plan.
    His mercy toward Tsurugi, more like because he respected Tsurugi butler and Tsurugi small relationship with his sister, Jyuka. It is just part of Tendou policy to take good care anyone who involved with his family. He even say thanks to Kagami who fight alone against horde of Worm while give Tendou time to save Hiyori.
    But still, he write out everyone involvement from his plan. Like if they did good, then is good, if they did not, he never trust them anyway.

    And back to this episode, Kagami was deserve more respect than just become inferior to Tendou like this. He was first person outside Tendou family who see Tendou weak side and get relied by him. Even though he to was back to his jerk personality after they get through those battle, Kagami still want to help him and most of time become his shield.
    He is not just inferior person to Tendou, he already become his own, Kamen Rider Gattack.
     
  16. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    Well, if you were capable of more than other people, and you know full well they'd try to get in on the plan, even if it means you understand that if they did, it'll be a huge demerit in terms of it's guaranteed success rate, would you still even bother telling them? That's how Tendou views things, and it's literally in his name. He IS above everyone else, not in the sense that he views himself as superior, but in the sense that the world has bent all kinds of logic and causality to cater to him, and he is self-aware of this fact. Life has proved time and time again, outside of his origin and backstory, that it will support him through any hurdle, that's why he is the man he is today.

    It's not like he doesn't trust people intentionally. The way they lived their lives and how life has treated them, it'll become a distraction in what he views as the bigger picture. In this sense, you can't really view Tendou as a "realistic" person, but he's pretty much the concept of the law of attraction as a person. Things gravitate towards him because... he willed it. His confidence in himself and how he carries himself is a good proof of this, as opposed to someone like Sougo being Zi-O is completely ridiculous. There is no ounce of confidence in that actor's posture and nature as a human being nor the way he goes around carrying himself either to justify that kind of belief either. But with Tendou, it's believable that that's a belief system he truly commits to just based on acting ability alone.

    I think this episode missed the point of the Kabuto show, if I'm being completely honest. Like I said before, it felt like they pretty much said "if Tendou didn't exist, Kagami should have become Kabuto therefore it's fine to undo all the development for Kagami and reduce him to a Tendou-wannabe" Heck, they even made Kagami fight in a similar style to Tendou when he was in the Kabuto suit. Kagami was never written to feel forever doomed to be inferior than Tendou. He outgrew that already within the series itself. But here, it's like they completely missed the point.
     
  17. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    Also, I'm pretty sure the Gatack Zector IS the strongest Zector. It even has it's own voice augmentation that's different from other the other Zector's robotic announcements. What was that all about, if not for establishing him as being a Rider completely in his own league? It's not just aesthetic piece they thought would be fun, there WAS a reason it was made that way.
     

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