Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by SamuraiEchidna, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Goodbye for now, but when the time is right, we'll meet again.

    Welcome to the discussion thread for the TV series Kamen Rider Zi-O, including the final episode 49; "2019: Apocalypse".
    (Episode title's translation may vary depending on your fansub group of choice.)
    This week: Tsukuyomi has became a Kamen Rider, only to betray everyone and advance the A.R World apocalypse. After Geiz is killed attempting to stop Tsukuyomi, a disturbingly calm Sougo resolves to end Swartz's scheme and stop his former friend by becoming Ohma Zi-O as the final battle reaches its conclusion.

    This thread was made with Toku Prime's permission. And remember, this is a SPOILER ZONE! If you are trying to avoid spoilers, this is not the place for you.
    HOWEVER! This is not the place discuss movies, specials, or related media that has not yet been released. You may discuss previous episodes, previous releases, and related subjects; but stick to the discussion topic at hand. Please be considerate of those who haven't watched ahead yet. Thank you.​
  2. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    I know the summary was from official site but it was really off, like Sougo was not calm at all, he was obviously full of anger. When I read it before, I thought he was possessed or his true plan start when Geiz is dying, because he did that disturbingly calm when he attain Zi-O II power and reset Geiz back to life.

    Lol, Tsukuyomi really didn't have any real battle scene at all. Well, time manipulation is her strongest forte since she awaken her true power. But her only attack me just remind me about how series never explain what is that magic sword thingy. Ora used it against Uhr and she should be lost her time jacker power at that time. Make me wonder about Ora and Uhr background before they meet Swartz. Is they magic tribe too like Swartz and Alphina but in lower class? Because their time manipulation power was given to them from Swartz, but they always have their energy manipulation power. I always thinking Woz too is part of their tribe but in higher class because he can time travel without Time Mazine or maybe they just never show it because Shiro Woz have it.

    I feel they try to imitated Kuuga Ending where Godai always know he will transform to Ultimate Kuuga and is avoiding it but end up rely to that power against final boss. And blend Ryuki and Build ending where they reset timeline while infuse it with person which shouldn't be there. Those was good idea but mashed up together without any build up before make me feel this was rushed ending. More like a bait to make many V-Cinema to explain whatever actually happen to rest of character. I hope we didn't get sad ending like they did to Knuckle, Makoto and Kuroto.
  3. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Quick Reminder!
    I am going to be a lot less active here, and this is the last Kamen Rider series I'll be posting episode discussions for. Thanks for the ride, everyone. :)

    First, my thoughts on the final episode...
    I haven't felt this retcon'd since I played Sonic 2006! They basically took an idea from Decade, destruction becomes creation (I am pretty sure it's based on the actual Big Bang Theory, not the TV show with the same name), and ran with it. In my opinion, this episode does it better than what Decade did. Because while everything is reset, Tsukyomi's reality and Sougo's reality were merged into one world, and killed-off characters were revived with a new chance at life (it might even mean that Schwarz was revived, but as a character that isn't evil anymore).

    But the episode isn't perfect by any means. I just don't feel like Zi-O's power is limited to destruction and creation, especially in that order. Tsukyomi's double-double cross was dumb, and she is extremely lucky it worked out in any kind of way. I'm also very confused about how this ending is at all tied to the Oma Zi-O we saw at the beginning of the series. He's still a complete mystery to me; I still don't understand why future Sougo went evil, nor why Tsukuyomi and Geiz were resistance fighters.

    And I could be sad that the ending I was hoping for didn't happen, but... We still have one more Zi-O movie to go, maybe another after that for all we know. If Zi-O really is going the route of Decade, then I image a future movie will probably give another ending to Zi-O's story. I just can't imagine they'd end it this way without trying to restore the history of the previous Riders. (Unless that's exactly what happened in this finale, and the A.R.'s separating once again was suppose to symbolize that, which would be kind of a cop-out.)

    And now my thoughts about the Zi-O series as a whole...
    At first, I had no problem with the crazy writing. It might have been all over the place, but I was quick to adapt and figure out why everything was happening the way it was. For the most part, the show's premise was pretty well approachable, and I wasn't as lost as other people watching along.

    However, the later half really jumped the shark when the writers decided to make it more like Decade. It didn't need to be more like Decade, the show was fine with its own identity. There was all ready a lot to draw from, a lot of potential that could have been used to tell a different, even better story. I'm not hating on this show, but I think they didn't needed to pour on the Decade influence this hard.

    In the end, all I can say is that this series has really shown me how crossovers in tokusatsu franchises should be handled...
    Whenever Super Sentai has a crossover, either between two teams or multiple teams, they usually keep it fairly ambiguous. They don't often go into the how-and-why those teams are crossing over. They don't usually try to bring in multiverse theory or any kind of logic into it. It happens just because. And I feel like for Kamen Rider, that really should be the direction they go with.

    As Decade and other fictional media has shown us, multiverse principle is all ready complicated enough as it is. Top that off with time travel, time manipulation, time altering, and time destruction, and what do you get? An unnecessarily convoluted mess that makes plenty of people rightfully upset. If you don't want to be part of the "turn your brain off to enjoy it" crowd, you'd need a lot of notes and supplemental material just to make sense of it all.

    When the reason for a crossover is left open and ambiguous, it might be a little annoying, but it's a lot harder to hate it. The narrative reasons for why it's happening are usually answered through fan speculation and head canon. And it's a lot harder to get mad at your own imagination, especially when that speculation isn't official anyways. By being ambiguous, fans can put their own theories behind it and be perfectly happy with whatever they want to believe. And those that don't care will just enjoy the ride without having to worry about a flawed narrative in the first place. If Sentai can do crossovers better, then Kamen Rider would be much better off taking a page from their book.

    (Sorry for the long post, everyone. Didn't mean to write an essay. :cool: )

    Actually, I cut and paste the description from Wikipedia. I make these discussion threads before watching the episode, and since I can't make a custom description without seeing the episode first, copying from Wikipedia is easier and faster. Don't blame me, blame the editor. :p
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  4. Toku Prime

    Toku Prime Member

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    So there was a rumour on twitter that they had "Mr Kamen Rider" Seiji Takaiwa play the older Sougo on the throne in this episode. While I like the idea of him having a cameo in his final episode as lead suit actor, I really hope it's not true. Having him play the old king who fades away seems more like a diss than a tribute.

    I also really enjoyed Tsukasa's final line, "Sounds like a chance for a new journey." Yes, it's an obvious nod towards the incoming Reiwa era, but it also reminded me of the end credits to 'All Riders vs Dai Shocker', which contained a dedication message from the producers wishing "a good journey to Kamen Riders to come".

    Tsukasa's actor, Masahiro Inoue, has also spoken on twitter about his time on this show, and how he went into this episode considering it to be his final performance, as the character is considered something of a representative of the Heisei era, so he doesn't believe he will be invited back for many years, if ever. I'm sure many people don't care about that, but Decade was the first subbed toku show I ever saw, so the idea of not seeing him again saddens me somewhat.

    As for the episode itself, well they pushed the reset button but somehow it didn't bug me as much as it did when Build did it. With Build they spent a year having the characters go through so much together, and with such an obvious effect on the world around them, that undoing that felt like something was being sacrificed. Whereas with Zi-O I didn't feel that so the reset didn't bug me so much.

    Also, weirdly, even though the world was ending it never really felt like the stakes were being raised, so it didn't feel like a massive finale. I dunno. Kinda sad that an entire era ends on a whimper.
    I've heard the argument many times (both for fiction and as general philosophy) that time travel would essentially be creating a parallel dimension, with the point of divergence being wherever you land in the past. So I could just role with it, but it did feel like they changed the idea at some point.

    And yeah, I totally took the separating worlds to mean each Rider goes back to their own world. At least until the next crossover movie in December, where I'm sure it will be forgotten about.
  5. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    He says that every time.
  6. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    Masahiro Inoue always give big impact in every Toku he play. And Tsukasa was very unique character which sadly never got proper story in Decade series. TOEI did try to give more clear explanation to Faiz and Blade ending, but to give Decade proper ending, they will need big preparation and long plot because Decade have too many plothole to get explained in one Movie. I think this make many fans is always hyped to see him appear in crossover, hoping to see his story to move on. His actor was good at acting too and didn't seem have any success outside Toku, so I think they will calling him over and over again until fans get bored of him. Just like Den-O Imajin. Unless he got big role outside Toku like Takeru Satoh.
  7. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    To me, the movies pretty much tied up all the loose ends for Decade. One of them explained his past and where he came from, and why he can travel the multiverse as well as imply what happened when he lost his memories. And the crossover movie with Double pretty much sealed the deal on his story; he revived the A.R. worlds and guided them back to their own untouchable realities while Decade himself and his friends go on a never-ending journey. Of course, that's just if you consider the movies canon. I know there will always be people on both sides saying they are non canon, but accepting that as true really leaves a lot of Rider stories for Decade and the rest of Heisei unfinished.
  8. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    I'm sure Movie All Rider Vs Daishocker follow non canon tradition like previous movie rider ( except Den-O which make their movie look like a canon movie because they always make new one tied up with previous movie). While W X Decade was canon because its story was continuing from end of series.
    That left us with many question because Tsukasa past in first movie can't make it to series. And we still didn't know about who is Narutaki or reason why Kaito always pick a fight with Tsukasa but at same time befriend him. Even first movie only give us brief summary about Tsukasa somehow become Great Leader and Kaito steal Diendriver from him. His family was messed up and their naturally dimension power. It was unsatisfied story because it is really short and almost come out from nowhere.

    And Zi-O almost have same fate but atleast he get full season to explain everything. What if it ends at episode 31? We didn't even know what Timejacker is.

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