[DISCUSSION] Kamen Rider Heisei Generations Forever (Movie)

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by SamuraiEchidna, May 14, 2019.

  1. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    [​IMG]
    The last chapter in the Generations cinematic series.

    Welcome to the discussion thread for the theatrical movie: Kamen Rider Heisei Generations Forever.
    Synopsis: Sougo Tokiwa/Kamen Rider Zi-O and Sento Kiryƫ/Kamen Rider Build must join forces with all the Kamen Riders of the Heisei era against Tid, a Super Time Jacker who intends to erase the entire history of Heisei Kamen Riders.


    This thread was made with Toku Prime's permission. And remember, this is a SPOILER ZONE! If you are trying to avoid spoilers, this is not the place for you.​
     
  2. Shougo B'Stard

    Shougo B'Stard Would like to change his avatar

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    I started out watching Zi-o with the intention of keeping up with it, but I just really didn't like it, so I stopped before the Wizard episodes. Since then, I'll just watch the episodes pertaining to the shows I like. I knew I wasn't going to be interested in this movie -- even though it pretends to pertain to Kuuga and W, it's long been spoiled that the movie does jack with them -- but decided to watch it anyway.

    I thought the movie was far too long. I can't believe that Rider movies are beginning to get as bloated as Hollywood stuff now is. (I mean, 104 minutes is a short compared to Hollywood, but adjusted for standard toku length, it's as bad as a three hour Avengers.) I thought the stuff with the brothers was a good idea, pretty touching, but the movie's structure kept tripping it up. The rest of the movie is the same nonsensical mumbojumbo all the other "event" Rider movies are. It's a movie that thinks it has a cool concept, but is really just stupid -- hey, Kamen Rider's just a TV show to this ordinary charcter who's only going to matter in this movie, but the real characters we've followed all this time might just all be fake! People on Twitter are getting crapped on for complaining about this part of the movie, but it's just dumb. If you want to see this idea done in a much, much better way, go watch the 8 Super Ultra Brothers movie. In this movie, it's just ineptly executed -- an attempt at a high concept idea, but with no idea how to put that idea into motion. But, uh, hey, here's Takeru Satou, let him distract you from the fact that this movie is nearly unwatchable!

    I'll compliment Toei for this, at least -- I dislike Den-O and think it ruined the franchise, and I'll never understand why Takeru Satou became so successful, but they managed to successfully keep his involvement secret. It didn't hit until the movie was released, and that's not only rare in this day and age, but rare for Japanese media. They're never afraid to spoil things in ads or promotional material. It's kinda sad that this movie was so successful and it fooled people into thinking it's good just because they got back Takeru Satou for 30 seconds. Take out that surprise and you're left with Zi-o and Build VS CGI Movie Taisen. Whoop-dee-do!

    As someone who hasn't watched a single episode of Build, this movie or his appearances in the Zi-o series doesn't make one feel the need to watch it. The suits are ugly, his sidekick's not funny, I hate Otoya, and Build himself is basically just Kamen Rider Sheldon? No, thanks.
     
  3. Kamen Rider IXA

    Kamen Rider IXA Lurker

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    ^Sento/Build has some good things going on for him as a character in the show. I'd safely call him the best MC in the franchise since Shotaro (not that he has a lof of competition here, but still). Since you disliked both Gaim an Ex-Aid, Build probably isn't going to set your world on fire, but series does have some neat things that I personally appreciate. Especially compared to the majority of Phase 2.
     
  4. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    I don't know if I can agree to that assessment. Sheldon's an anti-social awkward doesn't understand humans kind of guy. Sento has a similar range when it comes to his intellect, but he's a very socialable, likeable kinda guy. I think the genius that is socially awkward, skinny, and doesn't have a lot of friends trope is so overdone to death and stereotypically inaccurate, so I think characters like Sento are a refreshing take, geniuses are humans too. Just because they are intellectually more capable, that doesn't make them suddenly have all the anti-social qualities people associate with their architype. But that being said, I do think Build suffered on it's lack of consistency, or at least the kind of consistency you can vouch for that inherently makes sense in it's own world building. I mean, a lot of the Best Match forms are just random things thrown together with almost little to no sense besides one is organic, and one is inorganic. Sometimes, they're thrown in because of things like Octopus-Light. "Oh Octopus can... spread ink... CREATES DARKNESS! And Light can... LIGHT UP A LIGHT BULB! WE HAVE OUR DUALITY!" See, it's things like this that irks me. Sure, they're opposites, but in no way does it offer a really interesting narrative to that form's existence or it's significance in a fight, how combos could be executed in an interesting way and all that.
     
  5. Shougo B'Stard

    Shougo B'Stard Would like to change his avatar

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    ^ Build seems kind of mean to his little buddy, though, always calling him stupid. Doesn't seem likable to me, but...maybe he's different in the show.

    The random combos of the forms that you mentioned is another thing that bothers me about it. It just seems like they're pulling items from a hat. There's been too many ugly forms in Kamen Rider as of late. If you're following a show that's wall-to-wall ugliness like Ex-Aid, you better have some pleasant to look at designs.
     
  6. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    Well, this movie was... Good? Yeah, I'll go with that. Good. Not great, not terrible. It's a little confusing, but I wouldn't say it's bad. I don't like a movie that forces me to take notes. To quote Decade, I understand the gist of what was going on in the movie. However, to fully understand things, I'd have to take notes and make sure I put everything together in a clear order of events. (WARNING! Incoming wall of text ahead...)

    There's a lot of details that make it confusing. The opening moments made me think they were retelling the first few episodes of Zi-O, but they weren't. And they never tried to tie in that final scene from Kamen Rider Build's movie "Be The One", which was a trend since Ex-Aid at least, but oh well too bad. There was also conflicting details like how the Build Riders are still Riders with their memories intact, but the villain was using Den-O's time travel powers, which pretty much explains a lot. Two time altering powers competing with each other was a very interesting thing. It nearly overpowered Sougo and his personal friends, but thankfully they kept snapping out of it, probably because of their own Rider gear. (Like I've explained elsewhere, being a Rider that can alter time would be pointless if you didn't have gear that made you immune to timeline changes, and I'm pretty sure that's what the Rider gear from Zi-O does.)

    Honestly, the only thing I can't even begin to explain is the whole "creating a reality where Riders don't exist" thing. I doubt an Imagine, a Singularity Point, and an over powered Time Jacker could really pull that off. They never fully explain it, they never explain if it applies to the Showa Era or not, and the two brothers grow up thinking Kamen Riders are STILL a fictional thing despite all those emotional declarations of "If we remember them, then they're real!" I do think Sougo/Zi-O having a meta moment where he somehow leaves the world of fiction and enters a reality where Kamen Riders are fake would make for a cool story. However, the meta narrative here is just ham-fisted and probably should have been left on the chopping block. You can still have this emotional story of two brothers and Kamen Riders being erased from history, just leave the meta stuff out. But while all of that is confusing, I'm not sure if it's bad or not. It's basically the creators giving a nod to all the fans who grew up with Kamen Rider, as well as long time fans that never gave up on the franchise. It's a nice to see that kind of acknowledgement, even if it's confusing.

    But what I am disappointed with is how Zi-O got the Double Ride Watch. I knew it would be explained here, but it would have been nice to see SOMEONE from that TV show. Heck, they could've at least hired back one of Shotaro's informant characters from the show to be the ramen stand owner. That being said, there was a LOT to like about this movie too. It's good to see the playful banter between the Build Riders again; I always loved it. That moment between Momotaros and the original Ryutaro (Takeru Satoh) was such a heartwarming 4th wall breaker, because it is good to see him after tons of movies without him. Heck, the Den-O moments in this as a whole were a lot more bearable for once! (But despite how much his Imagin begged, I doubt we'll see them again after this.) Thanks to the recycled voice clips, I'm pretty sure the Hibiki in this was the original Hibiki and not his successor. But the best part was how they handeled Kuuga! Couldn't get his original actor? That's okay, just grab the power from the corpse of the original Kuuga from the ancient past! Best way to handle it, period. And while I'm not sure, as Sougo and Sento shared that final scene together before departing, I'm pretty sure Sougo's Zi-O powers were kicking back in. The Build Riders would soon lose their powers and memories again, but Sougo would still remember and still have the Ride Watches.

    The villain was kind of lame, just going to throw that out there. Somethings I do wish happened but didn't: I wish we could have seen the Showa Riders. Yes, I know this is more about Heisei since it's the end of an era for them, and I respect that. Still, would have been nice to see a genuine All Riders moment. Maybe in the next Zi-O movie... Would have loved to see the Kuuga Armor in action outside of the Time Mazine. And I wish the CGI would get a little better, but that's just me.

    Over all, I did have a fun time, though sometimes completely confused about what's happened. I know Kamen Rider movies have fallen out of the Director's Cut trend, but if any movie deserves it, I'd say it's this one. The confusing parts just make me feel like something is missing, and maybe 5 more minutes could smooth those plot hiccups out just a bit more. But let's face it, we all know why this movie was made. It's a parade showing off all the Heisei Riders. It's Zi-O, the last Heisei show, this was bound to happen. And even if you disagree, even if you feel like this was a waste of time or a waste of production, I guess we should all just remember what Owner from Den-O said... What's important is not the content, but what is remembered.
     
  7. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    Honestly, I like the Build suits a lot.(The weapons are another story: I wish NinjaComic's sword had been a katana with a pentip point, and the comic panels on the blade made to be much smaller, rather than the blatant toy we got) You wouldn't imagine a vaccum cleaner form to be anything but awful, but like with Gaim, they manage to make it work and look good. Now compare that to Drive and Ex-Aid, shows with themes that ought to have lent themselves to cool designs, but ending up with truly awful ideas.

    I still think reading outside of the genre can make you appreciate more stuff in the genre. If you know anything about WW1, you can appreciate some of the stuff in Build. Even Black RX, which most people hate but I can like in a "If Stefan Zwig was a toku superhero" way.
     
  8. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    In regards to why he calls his friend "stupid" it's the common Japanese comedy of one is the "straight guy" and one is the "baka". Actually, we have something similar to that in Thailand here. As in, the "straight guy" is the guy who says things that will counteract the "baka", who often says things that's like almost too common sensical if you catch my drift, it's the things that almost everyone thinks, in a sense, it's "common sense", but it's almost surface level common sense and pretty shallow assessment. Like any normal person with common sense would assume these things, and sometimes, they're right, but that comes at the cost of looking at things deeper, and Japanese Comedy often does this trope where you don't say things that are common sensical that can be detrimental to the collective group thinking. Sento will call him out as an idiot because he doesn't factor in other people's opinions or way of thinking, even if to a certain extent, Ryuga COULD be right. But that's exactly it. He could be, doesn't mean he is.

    While I agree with Rider Suits have been getting ugly, I give Ex-Aid a pass. It's engrained in our culture in a sense that these are Mario-looking type characters, as in pixels are retro, and because it IS stupid to look at, it's excellent. I don't know, that's just me.

    I agree with NinNin Comic, but I don't know about Vaccum Lion. I think Lion and even Wolf should have been partnered with things that you know... makes sense to be partnered with. What the heck does Lion Vaccum mean metaphorically? In that sense, what is Wolf and Smartphone's correlation? A phone obsessive loner? I don't know, while I like how Vaccum is executed, I think they ruined it by just pairing it with Lion.

    If you don't mind, can you please share some knowledge about the WW1 parts and how it relates to Build? Perhaps I didn't catch it in my viewing.
     
  9. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    Would it not have been cool if Brave had had an Assassin's Creed or Dragon's Dogma-inspired look? If Snipe had been modeled on Metal Gear Solid? The video game theme just seemed wasted in Ex-Aid.

    Regarding Build, examine how science and technology had progressed during the "Belle Epoch", the period from the 1870s after the Franco-Prussian War up until 1914 when Franz Ferdinand took a wrong turn at Sarajevo. With all of these advancements, more and more people were getting concerned over how devastating a potential future war would be. Everyone wanted peace; even military lovers like Kaiser Wilhelm II wanted a victory, not a war (odd as that may sound). Build had a theme of advancements in science being corrupted by entities like Faust for evil purposes. Sento regretted the work he had done in his "past life" since it spearheaded all of the carnage that was going on between the three countries, and Faust's experimentations on innocents. With WW1 came the beginning of the mass death of religion and morality in Europe, which birthed dark worldviews to fill in the void and resulted in even more amoral use of Man's machinery.
     
  10. Hangyakuno

    Hangyakuno Lurker

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    I guess I will put it in spoiler in case anyone here is still not watching Build.
    Best Match is indeed messed up and I think it is fault of toys department, but in series, scriptwriter have a good idea to turn this messed up toys to become good satisfying plot.
    Villain mastermind, Evolt, is psycho evil who enjoying to gather information about Earth before destroying it. Hence, he take control Soichi body and force him to answer his question about what is the living thing which will make him happy and what is needed to destroy it. Love and destruction.
    Full bottle essence was created according Soichi answer. At first he answer it with something dangerous like Tank or Gatling, but then his conciousness start to fight back and he start to mumbling about random thing. The reason Soichi snap out is because he remember about his daughter, and first half of his answer is based what his daughter like when he show her drawing book.
    From the beginning, it is random thing and become more random because Soichi snap out. Like how the hell you kill a lion with vacuum cleaner. This plot is just to show Shoichi's final retaliation against Evolt to protect his daughter. He is concious this entire series but can't do anything while he watch Evolt messed up with his daughter life.

    Heisei Generation Forever is messed up story but they try to cover it with many fanservice which have nothing to do with the plot. I mean the biggest plot hole about this is how can be Fuutaros exist if there is no real Kamen Rider in those sibling world. Is Denliner capable to cross another dimension now?
     
  11. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    I think they avoided those games in particular because the Japanese people want to well... elevate more Japanese themes, or capture primarily mainstream and broad concepts. Like I'm pretty sure Brave's Taddle Quest is essentially Dragon Quest. and Bang Bang Shooting is well... I don't know, Call of Duty? Counterstrike? Ah beats me...

    But yeah, I'd have loved a Assassin's Creed type Gashat, or even Metal Gear Solid for Snipe. I think they didn't pick Metal Gear Solid solely because that could have solved the Dangerous Zombie pretty fast. I think it was the old Metal Gear Solid 2, if I recall, where if your character got killed by a zombie, you can come back as one and vomit out laser blasts. I think that was one of the stages, memory isn't too clear on that. But see, it's this lack of wanting to cross the threshold and possibly push Kuroto further for the sake of resolving him so that they can get to Parado taking him out and becoming the main antagonist for awhile that destroyed this progression.

    Damn, you sure know your stuff. Appreciate the history lesson. This was exactly why I signed up here to begin with 10 years ago. People like you telling us exactly how it is.

    I mean, the Urobutcher did this too right. He forced the Lockseeds to work in his script, and this is where I say he did it better. I mean... yeah, you can say Build's writer tried, but it falls short on what Gen achieved with Gaim. Ah well... can't have Gaim every season. Like... that explanation just... seems like it tried. But yeah, the toy department is clearly at fault here.

    I haven't seen Heisei Generation Forever yet, but I don't have any urgency to do so. I don't know what it is, I just don't like Zi-O's actor. He has no charisma as an actor. Or charm. Like I just can't be bothered, and I don't care too much about Takeru Satou (although I think he did pretty great in the Bakuman live action, haven't seen his live-action Ruroni Kenshin film, but people keep praising it so I might check that out).
     
  12. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    Forget what I said about Metal Gear Solid here. I got it wrong, I don't think there was a stage where there's a zombie that kills you. I must be thinking of a completely different game... *sigh*
     
  13. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    No wait.. I was right. UGH, where's the EDIT button?
     
  14. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    It's at the bottom for your post, just hidden. Highlight the area that says when you posted your reply, and move the cursor all the way to the right until you see: Edit Delete Report. Those are your buttons.
     
  15. Black Fang

    Black Fang Member

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    I'm only using those games as examples. My larger point was that video games the material to come up with some cool designs, but instead we got cartoon-eyes, pale pastels and Nerf belts/arsenals.

    That would be a nice parlor game: come up with your own Rider for GENM's Kamen Rider Chronicle based on characters or things in existing games. Imagine an Area 51 Rider, a Shadow of the Colossus Rider, Call of Duty, Prince of Persia, the Arkham games, Ace Combat, Devil May Cry... the list goes on. Some of these games could even be Level 3 and up gashats instead of separate Riders: imagine a Batman Arkham Rider with DMC armament, or vice versa. He'd be a literal vampire bat.

    Glad to help.
     
  16. Shogun_Master

    Shogun_Master Why is every good TV show Cancelled

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    The funniest thing in the movie was how much of a cop out the way they got the double watch was. Shortly followed by that scene after the first fight when all those people were filming them & cheering where you later go back and realize that all those people were super impressed with how those actors legit blew up the stunt guys they were fighting.

    All I can really say was that this movie was very confusing and felt really compacted and long. I think the writers have been cooped up in that room too long and they're starting to get super meta. Of course, I guess the fact someone brought up about how Ultraman has done the same thing is probably a better explanation. But, the movie wasn't the worst thing ever. That final fight was pretty good.

    They didn't really do a very good job of being faithful with Ryuga's personality. If you were to base your entire understanding of him off of this movie alone, it really wouldn't surprise me that that's your conclusion. But Build was kind of a weird season. It starts off with a pretty good hook, but makes you think given everything happening around it that no one is even really trying and nothing is explained or attempting to make the slightest bit of sense. But, it does end up answering every single question you've got... eventually. Actually, really well, too.

    As to Build treating people like crap, he does often get annoyed when he can figure something out and someone else can't and, maybe prides himself a little too much on always having an answer, but it's not Sheldon level. Hell, it's not even Kabuto level, where it seems like he's an incredible douche until you sort out his psyche and the only answer the show can give you is that this guy is literally beyond human understanding and to stop trying.
     
  17. SamuraiEchidna

    SamuraiEchidna Member

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    I saw every episode of Build, and I never once got the impression that Sento/Build was being unnecessarily mean to his friends. Its true that in the beginning of the show, him and Ryuga/Cross-Z are kind of thrust into a weird situation together and neither really want to rely on each other. However, they soon get along really nicely and become friends. And any instance of Sento calling him an "idiot" is just playful ribbing. They do it to each other all the time and it means nothing. Sure, Ryuga might not be a genius like Sento and doesn't always understand the science stuff he gets into, but none of them truly abuse each other. They look up to each other, fight like best friends, and their relationship is pretty wholesome. It may seem weird seeing it for the first time in a movie like this, but the portrayal isn't incorrect. Just means you really need to see and absorb the Build TV show to understand it.
     
  18. Japaneseseriesfan

    Japaneseseriesfan A simple passerby...

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    Yeah... still can't find it. I highlighted my entire posts. Nothing showed up. All it says is "Like" or "Reply".
     
  19. raden238

    raden238 Member

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    I finally got around watching this movie and I give a 7/10. Was this perfect, absolutely not. But this movie was meant to celebrate the Heisei Riders and the franchise as a whole and it did just that. This is first Rider movie that had kid characters that I actually cared for. Shingo and Ataru's moments were very touching and essentially was an allegory for Rider fans. They great up with the show and loved it (Shingo) but then had a falling out with the franchise and just stopped caring anymore (Ataru).

    The movie made no sense, logically, Zi-O's own lore that it established in the show, and Rider in general. They did the whole "as long as people remember the Kamen Riders, they will always live on etc.. with the 40th Anniversary film from 2011. But here they went further, practically meta level with the whole "its just a dumb show to sell toys" bit. I found it to be very tongue in cheek.

    It's hard for me to get into Rider movies nowadays because they're all so manufactured like it came from a factory. We always get some bad cgi giant fight, child characters, a generic villain that just wants to kill people or destroy/take over the world. It's the same thing over and over again. I already stopped watching the summer movies and only gave this a viewing because it had a bigger budget and I knew they would have a surprise for the fans.

    It took 11 years to get Takeru Satoh to reprise his role as Ryotaro but it was worth it. Its so rare for movies nowadays to keep secret casting and spoilers from leaking out or showing it in the trailers but Toei did a good job this time around. The way Momotaros talk to Ryotaro was basically what Rider fans would have said. This movie was meta and touching in a good way for me. It stands out from the rest. I will say say that Movie War Megamax, Kamen Rider Taisen and Heisei Generations Final are still the top-tier Rider movies for me.
     

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