Biggest Toku Dissapointments Ever!

Discussion in 'Henshin Justice Unlimited' started by KamenRiderLeo, Jan 22, 2011.

  1. The_Next!!!

    The_Next!!! Member

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    - The entirety of Decade excluding apollo geist.
    - Den-O not actually having an ending. I'm not hating on Den-O like I used to...it's just...can't they move on?
    - Ultraseven X...just wanted sooo much more out of it...
    - Spielban's lame anticlimactic ending...I know Shogo will disagree on this one but it ruined everything for me...
    - Amazon being only 20 something eps...
     
  2. Galaxian

    Galaxian Lurker

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    Unfortunately, there are two things that go against GSL being the series Origin Ending:

    - The flashback scenes of Hiyori and Tendou at the crash site. (Which is a little week since even the series' opening seems to go with GSL)

    - Tendou revealing in the series that a Native Worm gave him the belt before he died.

    Of course, not accepting the GSL ending leaves the plot-hole of how Tendou knew about the Kabuto Zecter to begin with.
     
  3. KingRanger

    KingRanger Banned

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    Naw. They are AU. You can delude yourself till you cream your jeans, but they are AU.:thumbs:
     
  4. musashi03

    musashi03 HEROW

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    Yes, but as usual with most of KR series-movie integrations, there seems to be plot holes that can't be covered up. I'm guessing that the series of course came first, then the idea of the movie popped-up during the series airing since the whole show focuses on space-time-continuum.
     
  5. Galaxian

    Galaxian Lurker

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    Yeah, but the scene of Tendou saying how a Native Worm gave him to belt came out during the later part of the series, way after the movie was done.

    Though it is still possible that episode was filmed before the movie, I doubt it.

    I want to think that they meant GSL to be canon, be the the actual Origin Story, and that simply someone screw up with the script in the later episode.
     
  6. musashi03

    musashi03 HEROW

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    What I was saying was that the series script may have been done way before the idea of the movie probably came up, which is why Tendou said a line which doesn't connect it even if the movie GSL already aired prior.
     
  7. Painted_Outlaw

    Painted_Outlaw The new Tendou Souji

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    Or, maybe we could chalk it up to Tendou taking one too many hits to the head. v(^^)v.
     
  8. NeonZ

    NeonZ Member

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    ...

    I guess by this point no one is reading my posts?

    Episode 48 reveals that Tendo's flashback to that scene was just as mistaken as Hiyori's initial fear that he had killed her parents though.

    Tendo's description of the event portrayed him as this confident guy who was moved by the little girl and decided to not kill her parents and save her, but his revelation near the ending of the series shows that the entire scene was wrong.

    He was about to give up and die, but then Hiyori's words (using 'boku') gave him strengh to stand up and save her in an unexplained way. Watching through subs, it'd seem like Tendo was just just repeating the same thing, just remembering his own words to Hiyori, but, in the original dialogue, there's a clear difference. The words that Tendo remember in episode 48 from Hiyori's voice never actually appeared in his flashbacks, nor did he hear Hiyori talking about them, so the flashbacks which are incompatible with that event ARE questionable.

    That's why Hiyori kept remembering the sentence about being together using "boku" even though in Tendo's flashback he used "Ore" there. In the tv show, Hiyori starts repeating the sentence with "Ore" after hearing Tendo's description of the day, but in the end Tendo himself remembers that Hiyori was the one who spoke there in the beginning, using "boku", giving him will to stand up again.

    GSL doesn't show Hiyori saying that to him on screen either, but it does show the 7 years older Hiyori repeating the sentence with "boku", like in the tv show, even though the movie only shows directly Tendo saying his version of the sentence while saving her (using "ore"). So, that's why I'm not trying to say that there's a confirmed connection between them. The Hiyori scene could easily fit in a few seconds before the on screen footage in GSL, but it wasn't there. However, there's enough material to say that claiming they're incompatible with each other is wrong.

    The tv series never actually gave a definitive version of the events. We never actually got to see the correct flashback where Hiyori motivates Tendo and then he saves her.

    Did my post have any mistake? Can you offer any kind of criticism that's not completely void of meaning?

    The same person who wrote the episodes with the various flashback scenes to Hiyori's rescue also wrote the movie.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  9. Switchblade

    Switchblade Member

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    My biggest disappointment - and one that's fresh in my mind having just finished rewatching all 29 real episodes - was the Hibiki debacle.

    I know that Hibiki is not exactly everyone's favorite show. It was different, it was weird, and probably a good percentage of you stopped watching after the first scene with all the bikes and the singing. Me, though? I'm one of the people that absolutely fell in love with the show. Everything about it just clicked for me - I loved the characters, I loved the costume designs, I loved the way everything was structured around Asumu, I loved the mountain settings, I loved the show's mythology, I really loved the music, I loved... honestly, I could really just list every single aspect the show here. Had everything continued the way it was going, Hibiki would have easily ended up my favorite Rider show - and quite possibly tokusatsu series in general - of all time.

    But it didn't.

    Because for some reason - cost, production difficulties, creative differences, toy sales, female Rider, whatever - the show's creators got sacked and everything was handed over to Toshiki effing Inoue. And not the good Jetman/Agito Inoue. No, this was the frustrating, crappy, pale shadow of his former glory 555/Kiva Inoue and he brought along all of his favorite plot tumors. Almost instantly all of the stuff I adored so much about the show got shoved to the side or discarded, and what replaced it was almost uniformly terrible.

    The creepy, swapped voices Douji and Hime got replaced by a couple of clowns in funny costumes. The unique designs of the Makamou got replaced by more conventional designs that failed completely to gel with the show's existing aesthetic. Hibiki got a new ultimate form and spammed it almost as badly as Kiva would a couple years later. The beautiful ending theme was dropped and the wonderfully unigue instrumental opening was replaced by a vastly inferior vocal (with very obviously thrown together at the last minute visuals). Characters were either dropped (in poor Eiki's case he was removed right after his introduction) or heavily derailed (what they did with Asumu should be a crime).

    Probably the worst example of what happened was with Kiriya. If you've watched anything Inoue has ever done, it's obvious that one of his favorite tropes is having an incredibly insufferable character whose main purpose is to create conflict with the rest of the cast. In some cases it's done well - I genuinely liked Hojou as much as one can and Gai from Jetman is usually considered the show's breakout character. On the other hand, we have characters like Kusaka, who are so egregiously foul-tempered and hostile that you cannot even begin to fathom why the others didn't just kick him out of the laundromat. Kiriya is very much in the Kusaka mold - a good 75% of his screen time is solely devoted to him telling Asumu, often times very directly and bluntly, that he's a useless sack of crap that nobody really likes. And the worst part, the part that pisses me off to no end is that Asumu's reaction, every single damn time, is "Oh, yeah. I guess you're right. :disappoin" We get nineteen episodes of this and, as far as I remember, no one ever tries to tell Kiriya to stop being such an enormous douchenozzle. Everyone just accepts it.

    And as much as I hate Kiriya, the worst part, the absolute worst part of these episodes is the Shuki arc. Not because the character of Shuki is bad, not because of how its structured or played out, not because it's yet another evil Inoue Rider, or even because another female Rider is introduced just to almost immediately die - no, the reason I hate these episodes is because the message behind them is incredibly toxic and offensive. Akira was honestly never my favorite character. I thought she showed some good development, as many of the other characters did during the good 29 episodes, and I found some amusement from the love triangle that was being created between her, Hitomi, and the ever-unaware Asumu, but she there were other characters I liked a lot more. But what happened to her in the Shuki arc is completely disgusting and, quite frankly, downright misogynistic. Shuki comes in, almost kills Zanki, and inspires Akira to give up on the idea of becoming an Oni. Why? Because the entire message behind Shuki is "women aren't suited be Kamen Riders because bitches be crazy, yo." I don't mind the idea of a rogue Oni who goes a little nuts, but using it to make the one female Oni disciple on the show "see the error of her ways" and go back to being an ordinary school girl is just offensive. Especially with Kiriya standing around on the sidelines constantly questioning Akira about whether she was ever suited to be an Oni in the first place. I get it, Inoue, Kamen Rider is and always has been a boy's franchise. But that doesn't mean you need to so aggressively dismiss a female character who's trying to take up the mantle as well.

    Now, I can't say that the last 19 episodes were totally and completely terrible. The Zanki and Todoroki stuff in particular was actually really well done and moving and I thought it was hysterical when Kiriya realized he was nowhere near physically capable of becoming an Oni and tried to impress Hibiki with math trophies. Still, these episodes overall were vastly, vastly inferior to what came before and I cannot help but despise them for ruining what had been, up to that point, such a wonderful series.
     
  10. Subarunyon

    Subarunyon Member

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    I agree with most of what you said, and I was really touched with the Zanki - Todoroki stuff as well. I think Decade-Hibiki sort of redid what those episodes did wrong though, and damn those two episodes are amazing. Did you watch them? :)
     
  11. m121akuma

    m121akuma Member

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    *insert Citizen Cane clapping gif here*

    I agree with just about every point you have brought up here. The only part I disagree with is that I didn't even like the Zanki-Todoroki stuff (and I LOVE those two), mainly due to the fact that, in a series where everybody is so good at communicating with each other, NOBODY TOLD TODOROKI THE TRUTH. Yeah, it was to protect his feelings, but DAMMIT, he's a GROWN-ASS MAN. Hiding death from people is NOT HEALTHY.
     
  12. RapBert

    RapBert Member

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    Keep in mind this was written by Inoue, and in his shows nobody tells anyone anything, even if just one normal conversation could solve the problem.

    (Oh, and I guess it could also be because Zanki was about the only thing that kept Todoroki from giving up completely.)
     
  13. Switchblade

    Switchblade Member

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    Yeah, I thought the Hibiki arc on Decade was pretty good; arguably the best of the nine AUs. I did appreciate the fact that they got a good chunk of the supporting cast back and that they gave Akira a much better ending than the series did. I didn't care for the lazy schlub approach to Hibiki himself, but the concept behind the episodes was pretty decent and the core idea of a powerful demon taking over Hibiki and Asumu having to mercy kill him was something that could conceivably work in the original Hibiki world. Making Asumu a 10-year-old, on the other hand, did absolutely nothing for me, especially after the disaster that was the bratty kid version of Wataru.

    The Decade episodes did kind of sell me on Asumu as Hibiki, though, which was something I'd never wanted to see in the original. I always liked the idea that hanging out with the Oni helped Asumu find self-confidence in his own life. It never really seemed to me like he was ever being set up to become Hibiki's apprentice, though. Decade's version pulled that off way better than the lame attempt made in the Inoue version.
     
  14. musashi03

    musashi03 HEROW

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    Thank you.
     
  15. KingRanger

    KingRanger Banned

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    NeonZ. You can write walls of text about your thoughts and ideas about the movies all you want. That's great. It's good to have theories and such. But the Kabuto movie is AU.
     
  16. Galaxian

    Galaxian Lurker

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    First, that's not the scene I'm talking about.

    Second, are you saying that GSL should be considered the Origin Story or not, because all I'm saying it's that it should be, which implies that it isn't.
     
  17. NeonZ

    NeonZ Member

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    It's part of the same story. The flashback where Tendo gets the belt from the worms parents but doesn't kill them due to Hiyori and goes to save her is incompatible with the idea presented in episode 48 that he actually was almost dying and then Hiyori's words (which never showed up in the flashback mentioned by Tendo before) encouraged him to live on.

    We never actually got an actual flashback including Hiyori's words, so, we never saw the true version of the events in the series.

    I'm saying that it's not incompatible with the series. Although Hiyori's words were not shown in the movie directly, Tendo was under the rubble hearing her, so that easily could ahve happened before the movie scene itself. In the 7 years later scene, Hiyori is repeating her own words, like in the tv show, rather than Tendo's quote said while he saved her.

    However, I'm also saying that there's no proof it's the actual origin story, both because it's never directly acknowledged in the tv series and because the movie itself doesn't show the scene with Hiyori's words directly, just shows Hiyori repeating them seven years later.
     
  18. Galaxian

    Galaxian Lurker

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    The flashback on episode 48 doesn't say that he was dying and Hiyori was the one that save him. It also doesn't go against what he said episodes earlier about a Native giving him the belt.

    The way I see that flashback is that Tendou could only think about getting his revenge, not caring about his life, until he heard Hiyori calling out for help. If you look at ep 48 again, you see that even when Tendou remembers it, he is the one that originally says "I will stay by your side."
     
  19. NeonZ

    NeonZ Member

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    That's why I mentioned that a detail was lost in the subs in a previous message. They give the impression that Tendo is just remembering his own words to Hiyori, when those words are repeated with Hiyori's voice. But that's wrong. They're different, using "boku" rather than "ore" for the "I".

    Hiyori originally repeated that sentence with "boku" throughout most of the series. It's even in the initial scene of the show. But, when she heard Tendo's story about saving her (in episode 32. It's the one where he fakes kills her with Hyper Kabuto's help), she 'corrects' herself and repeats it with "Ore", which is what Tendo said while saving her.

    In episode 48, Tendo starts hearing the "Ore" version, but then remembers the "Boku" version, which had never appeared in his flashbacks, and cries out about how he was mistaken. So, the story that he told previously was wrong and we never get to see the correct version in an actual flashback. Even in that episode, the boku version was just a voice, without a scene accompaining it. The scene shown right before that was just the standard "Ore" version. None of the versions of the flashback shown in the series actually had a scene including Hiyori, or anyone else, saying "I will stay by your side" using "Boku".

    The movie hints at the same thing going on, although it never goes all the way and confirms it. Tendo says "Ore" while actually saving Hiyori, but she remembers the "boku" version seven years later, although a conflict between the two versions is never done, unlike in the tv show, and they're just randomly thrown there.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  20. Galaxian

    Galaxian Lurker

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    But the flashback only shows Tendou helping Hiyori, their roles never switch. And when Hiyori's words are heard in the present, it's the voice of the teenager Hiyori, not the child from 7 years prior.
     

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